The Passion of the Christ

[redd]

Wow, Avbug, your dissertation about Pilot was factual, thoughtful and beautiful, you even used the actual words in the bible to make your point, I couldn't have said it better myself.

Oh, and it's ok to talk about Pilot, after all, this is a pilot's aviation forum.

 

[TonyC]

A well worn guide to understanding scripture goes like this: when the plain sense makes sense, don't make any other sense.

I'm sticking with v 14 being spoken to Satan. He has no seed, so he cannot be the focus in v 15.

I'm still confused. The plain sense is that God spoke to Satan in verses 14 and 15, to the woman in verse 16, and to Adam in verses 17 through 19. The party addressed is explicity identified at the beginning of each passage:

Genesis 3
14 ¶ And the LORD God said unto the serpent, ...
16 ¶ Unto the woman he said, ...
17 ¶ And unto Adam he said, ...

To read it any other way makes NO sense.

 

[avbug]

I am so confused.

Don't be. That was a historical recounting of facts...hardly preaching.

If it were preaching, I would have used nudity, and visual aids. And a monkey. If for no other reason, than tradition, and the fact that they're a lot of fun. And loud music. And little pointy paper hats. The ones with the shiny tassles hanging down from the top, like dunce caps but brighter, cheerier. The ones with the little elastic chinstraps that never last more than five minutes on a good day when the wind is at your back.

Maybe not so much nudity, but a man must dream. A very wise man once told me, always aim for the stars, and at least you'll reach the tree tops.

 

[TonyC]

You're probably right. My four years of seminary and ordination were probably wasted...

If that's where you learned that "[t]he concept that Adam or Eve were guilty of anything is absurd", then I must agree.

One can read the scripture too literally.

You misspelled liberally.

 

[Timebuilder]

Tony.

Let's say you are a ten year old, standing next to your friend, Fred. The two of you have just been found doing something you shouldn't, like eating the cake that was going to be dessert, after dinner.

Now, if I break my words to you up into verses, it might look like this:

14: Tony, that was wrong what you did

15: I'm not very happy about this.

Now, what is not specified here is that I turned to Fred and addressed him in verse 15. Did I have to mention him, even if I mention other names in other verses, like your parents or your sister?

Of course not.

That's what I surmise is happening here.

 

[avbug]

"literally" does not equate to "liberally". I meant what I said, the way I said it.

Scripture wasn't written in verse, nor was it written the way it is translated, nor was it often translated correctly...nor was it codified in any way but by the vote of man...interpretation all the way for a great many years, through many languages, reinterpretations, and versions. Continue to interpret it as you will...but remember that you may well be interpreting it wrong.

Simply because you were taught the scripture in a certain way...doesn't mean it's correct.

Don't lose sight of the fact that interpretations and renditions, and translations of the scripture were performed for one purpose; political domination. Parts were removed, hidden, changed, and those parts included that those seeking power felt most conducive to their position. Those same verses were used to start and fight wars, to condemn, to conquor, to inspire, to put down, and even to put to death. Don't be too sure you hold all the answers in your hot sweaty hand. God isn't dead...and he didn't finish speaking to man in the few years following the death and resurrection of Christ.

Stay wrapped up in the facination that the bible is the be-all and end-all of what there is to know and receive, and you dam up your own progress. It's good information, important to know, but there's more...so much more. Every day. Every mountain top a temple, every forest a hallowed hall, every silent bedroom in the dead of night a cathedral; church is in the heart and in the home, and the real scripture is written between each man and woman and the maker in whom they believe.

I'll stop there; I promised not to preach, and I won't. I don't. But I will say this; don't get too wrapped up in what you think you know. You may yet be surprised in this life or the next...there's more under the sun than the few words scratched between the covers of your bible, and there's more yet to come.

 

[Timebuilder]

Don't lose sight of the fact that interpretations and renditions, and translations of the scripture were performed for one purpose; political domination. Parts were removed, hidden, changed, and those parts included that those seeking power felt most conducive to their position. Those same verses were used to start and fight wars, to condemn, to conquor, to inspire, to put down, and even to put to death. Don't be too sure you hold all the answers in your hot sweaty hand. God isn't dead...and he didn't finish speaking to man in the few years following the death and resurrection of Christ.

Sounds like you are not giving creedence to 2 Timothy, 3:16-17.

He has given us a perfect scripture, that when translated using an open heart inclined to God, will give the needed meaning.

 

[TonyC]

Now, if I break my words to you up into verses, it might look like this:

14: Tony, that was wrong what you did

15: I'm not very happy about this.

Now, what is not specified here is that I turned to Fred and addressed him in verse 15. Did I have to mention him, even if I mention other names in other verses, like your parents or your sister?

Of course not.

That's what I surmise is happening here.

If you want to pretend that verses 16 through 19 do not exist, then your explanation is more plausible. However, there they are, plain as day.

God spoke to 3 parties, and addressed each party explicitly as He "turned" to them. It does not follow your rule of simplicity to contort this passage to have God address Satan by name, turn to address Adam without naming him, address the woman by name, and then turn again to address Adam a second time, this time naming him explicitly.

 

[TonyC]

"literally" does not equate to "liberally". I meant what I said, the way I said it.

OK, I admit it. I was trying to put words in your mouth. Since you didn't bite, I'll say it myself.

One can read the scripture too liberally.

 

[Ailerongirl]

Re: Re: Re: READ THE BOOK FIRST !

Absolutely not.

There was a small child, about 4 or 5, that was seated behind me. I think it was child abuse to have such a child sit through the movie. I know she could not have possibly read the subtitles or had the slightest clue what all the blood-slinging was about.

My 17-yr-old daughter asked me if she could see the movie. I told her no, too. As I stated above, more can be gained from an hour of reading the book. The movie has enough violence, in my opinion, to receive an NC-17 rating.

The movie is strictly for a mature, studied viewer.

After hearing the reviews, that's pretty much what I thought, but I keep hearing how people are taking their children.

On another note (I haven't yet seen the movie), I had a friend, a non-Christian, who saw the movie, and was very moved by it. On the way home she called another friend who asked her "Do you think the movie made you question your faith?", to which she said that it didn't make her question it, but rather strengthed her belief, as she had a better understanding of everything Jesus went through. She also said that it was pretty graphic.

 

[wms]

Eve was deceived by Satan, referred to as the serpent, to whom the scripture in question is addressed. By divine proclaimation, her partaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil meant expulsion from the Garden of Eden, and a separation of the two. Adam, knowing that partaking of the tree also meant expulsion, elected to do so, fully understanding the consequences, in order to fulfill his requirement to be fruitful and multiply with Eve; his companion and helpmeet. Bottom line? He did it to be with her, and to fulfill the commandments of Jehovah.

Eve was disobedient to God. She and Adam were told specifically not to eat of the tree. When satan decieved her, she replied that she was not to eat of it OR touch it, which was not true. This showed satan that she did not fully have her mind on God, if she did she would have understood the command. He used her lack of understanding to exploit her pride. Adam was not decieved, nor was he subject to his wife, for woman was made for the man, not man for the woman, 1 Corr 11:8 & 9. He was disobedient( Romans 5:12).

You're probably right. My four years of seminary and ordination were probably wasted...but then who is to say your own interpretation is correct?

Anyone's interpretation can be incorrect, but the Word of God cannot. When we rely on the literal meaning of the word of God and not our own ideas or the ideas of others, God will reveal accurate truths to us. Among the christians I gather with, if find the preachers that have been to Bible college and seminary have ideas that have been passed to them from other men. But the ones who have immersed themselves in the Word of God and measure what men tell them by the Word of God have far more knowledge and understanding. I know that when I have found myself mistaken on a topic it was because I took someone at their word without comparing it to scripture.

 

[wms]

Stay wrapped up in the facination that the bible is the be-all and end-all of what there is to know and receive, and you dam up your own progress. It's good information, important to know, but there's more...so much more. Every day. Every mountain top a temple, every forest a hallowed hall, every silent bedroom in the dead of night a cathedral; church is in the heart and in the home, and the real scripture is written between each man and woman and the maker in whom they believe.

2 Peter 2
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in condemnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction

If it were preaching, I would have used nudity, and visual aids. And a monkey. If for no other reason, than tradition, and the fact that they're a lot of fun. And loud music. And little pointy paper hats. The ones with the shiny tassles hanging down from the top, like dunce caps but brighter, cheerier. The ones with the little elastic chinstraps that never last more than five minutes on a good day when the wind is at your back.

Galations 1
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

 

[slide33]

everybody is talking.

nobody is listening.

 

[Duke Elegant]

I have read some very intelligent and compelling posts on this thread. However , I still cannot decide whether to go see this movie .... or not.

That is actually what this thread is about.

My life is no longer measured by longetivity , but by inspiration. Soon , I have a date with infinity.

You see , I have terminal cancer. Two brutal six month courses of chemotherapy have at least got me this far. The cancer has returned for the third time and has now spread to my lung. They offered one more course of chemo and I declined.

I dealt with the fear of dying two years ago after the surgery. At present I am blessed with good health and a wife , family and friends that administer a more soothing cure ... that of love , respect , incredible generousity and support. I am the luckiest guy on earth.

I won't have time to read the bible. I don't know which version to choose.

But the soul of it's content is undeniable and profound. The movie is Mel's take on the event and then charged with passion and inspiration. Good for him.

I to , am inspired. ..... every day .... every moment.

God is in me. I didn't find him in the bible in the drawer by the side of the motel beds upon which I lay in my thirty seven years as an Aviator. I didn't find him in movies either.

But maybe I did listen , in Sunday school , to the cute parables and stories of magic... and serpents . And there was that nice guy , Jesus. Then in a boarding school , where commaradie replaced the lonliness of a non existant family, and where I endured the dailly ritualistic symbolism of dailly mass.

I don't feel cheated out of life. All you have to do is read my Tales of an Old Aviator thread and you will quickly realize that I have packed three lives into one anyway.

I have a lot of friends that pray for me. I hope it makes them feel good. I have so many friends with whom I would love to go to church .... but which one? I would love to go with my Muslim friend but I am not allowed. I loved our times together as he shone with inspiration during our wonderful discussions after flying. And my Jewish friends .... man.. I pick on them and we have lots of laughs. When I flew in New Guiinea I made many inspiring life long friends with the highland natives. They worship different stuff for sure but they love it. And the aboriginees in my home country , Australia ...inspiring. I have been blessed with a life hithertoo unimagined.

Not many people get the chance to plan their short future with so many resources to tap. My short term health affords me the opportunity to prepare myself and hopefully , to enjoy the rewards of forgiveness and my love of ALL people.


HONOUR IS A MAN'S GIFT TO HIMSELF

 

[Timebuilder]

I don't know how I would regard the knowlege of coming to the end of my road. All I can tell you is that I am VERY happy that I accepted the free gift of salvation before the inevitable event happened.

Studying the Bible is a fine idea to strengthen and expand your faith by increasing your knowlege of God. It is not, however, a necessity for salvation.

Attending church is a great way to grow in your knowlege of God while enjoying the company of fellow believers. That isn't a necessity, either.

Here is what I recommend to you as a minimum. You can expand on it later as time and your heart allows.

Start with the prayer: "Lord, I believe that Jesus Christ is your Son, that He died for my sins on the cross and He rose again. I want now to take Him as my personal Savior. Please come and live in me, and bring me the assurance of salvation, I pray in Jesus' name, amen."

As a believer, you can give testimony of your salvation, and show your obedient heart by baptism. Church and Bible study can give you great comfort, but the prayer is the basis of the act of acceptance of the finished work on the cross. That's the bottom line. Watching a movie will make it more poignant, more real, or more shocking, but the reality of the act made by Christ on all our behalf remains unchanged as the greatest gift ever given.


"For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)


You can be thankful that you have the opportunity to get right before it is too late. Millions of people run out of time every year, unable to accept the plan of salvation after their death.

If I can be of any help to you, feel free to contact me by a PM.