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The Passion of the Christ

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Part II

4) JEWISH BELIEF IS BASED SOLELY ON NATIONAL REVELATION

Of the 15,000 religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation -- i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He'll tell everyone, not just one person.

Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).

Maimonides states (Foundations of Torah, ch. 8):

The Jews did not believe in Moses, our teacher, because of the miracles he performed. Whenever anyone's belief is based on seeing miracles, he has lingering doubts, because it is possible the miracles were performed through magic or sorcery. All of the miracles performed by Moses in the desert were because they were necessary, and not as proof of his prophecy.

What then was the basis of [Jewish] belief? The Revelation at Mount Sinai, which we saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears, not dependent on the testimony of others... as it says, “Face to face, God spoke with you...” The Torah also states: “God did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us -- who are all here alive today." (Deut. 5:3)

Judaism is not miracles. It is the personal eyewitness experience of every man, woman and child, standing at Mount Sinai 3,300 years ago.

5) CHRISTIANITY CONTRADICTS JEWISH THEOLOGY

The following theological points apply primarily to the Roman Catholic Church, the largest Christian denomination, and the one most familiar to the Western world.

A. GOD AS THREE?

The Catholic idea of Trinity breaks God into three separate beings: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).

Contrast this to the Shema, the basis of Jewish belief: "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4). Jews declare the Shema every day, while writing it on doorposts (Mezuzah), and binding it to the hand and head (Tefillin). This statement of God's One-ness is the first words a Jewish child is taught to say, and the last words uttered before a Jew dies.

In Jewish law, worship of a three-part god is considered idolatry -- one of the three cardinal sins that a Jew should rather give up his life than transgress. This explains why during the Inquisitions and throughout history, Jews gave up their lives rather than convert.

B. MAN AS GOD?

Christians believe that God came down to earth in human form, as Jesus said: "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).

Maimonides devotes most of the "Guide for the Perplexed" to the fundamental idea that God is incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form. God is Eternal, above time. He is Infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that God assumes human form makes God small, diminishing both His unity and His divinity. As the Torah says: "God is not a mortal" (Numbers 23:19).

Judaism says that the Messiah will be born of human parents, and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, and will not possess supernatural qualities. In fact, an individual is alive in every generation with the capacity to step into the role of the Messiah. (see Maimonides - Laws of Kings 11:3)

C. INTERMEDIARY FOR PRAYER?

The Catholic belief is that prayer must be directed through an intermediary -- i.e. confessing one's sins to a priest. Jesus himself is an intermediary, as Jesus said: "No man cometh unto the Father but by me."

In Judaism, prayer is a totally private matter, between each individual and God. As the Bible says: "God is near to all who call unto Him" (Psalms 145:18). Further, the Ten Commandments state: "You shall have no other gods BEFORE ME," meaning that it is forbidden to set up a mediator between God and man. (see Maimonides - Laws of Idolatry ch. 1)

D. INVOLVEMENT IN THE PHYSICAL WORLD

Catholic doctrine often treats the physical world as an evil to be avoided. Mary, the holiest woman, is portrayed as a virgin. Priests and nuns are celibate. And monasteries are in remote, secluded locations.

By contrast, Judaism believes that God created the physical world not to frustrate us, but for our pleasure. Jewish spirituality comes through grappling with the mundane world in a way that uplifts and elevates. Intimacy in the proper context is one of the holiest acts we can perform.

6) JEWS AND GENTILES

Judaism does not demand that everyone convert to the religion. The Torah of Moses is a truth for all humanity, whether Jewish or not. King Solomon asked God to heed the prayers of non-Jews who come to the Holy Temple (Kings I 8:41-43). The prophet Isaiah refers to the Temple as a "House for all nations."

The Temple service during Sukkot featured 70 bull offerings, corresponding to the 70 nations of the world. The Talmud says that if the Romans would have realized how much benefit they were getting from the Temple, they'd never have destroyed it.

7) BRINGING THE MESSIAH

Maimonides states that the popularity of Christianity (and Islam) is part of God's plan to spread the ideals of Torah throughout the world. This moves society closer to a perfected state of morality and toward a greater understanding of God. All this is in preparation for the Messianic age.

Indeed, the world is in desperate need of Messianic redemption. War and pollution threaten our planet; ego and confusion erode family life. To the extent we are aware of the problems of society, is the extent we will yearn for redemption. As the Talmud says, one of the first questions a Jew is asked on Judgment Day is: "Did you yearn for the arrival of the Messiah?"

Are you allowed to interpret this yourself? If so, what is yours?

I'm sure I'm allowed but I choose not to debate theological issues on message boards.

Dude
 
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Super 80 said:
However, the Christian Bible is superbly supported as a truthful first century account. There is no reason to doubt the Gospels on their bibliography.

There's plenty of archeological evidence and secular texts that corroborate major events in Biblical history, however, the majority can never be corroborated. Who said what, who saw what, what G-d said to whom. These are things that one just has to believe took place as written. Keep in mind that humans are terrible at recalling things that are emotionally significant -- which covers most Biblical events. Jews especially have yearned for the Messiah during times of persecution and hardship. History tells of numerous false messiahs. Humans want to believe that wonderful things are happening -- and that makes them unreliable as witnesses. One needn't be a liar to tell an untruth. IMHO the only one who knows the absolute truth is G-d.

How do you feel about the Koran? Is it the truth? What new sacred text will come up next that "superceeds" all previous ones? How many more "truths" will come up that contradict earlier ones? You believe in your truths and that's fine but I believe in my own. Carry on.

Dude
 
Everyone is hung up on the temple and the earthquake. What about that raven crap? (My favorite seen in the movie, by the way.)

No where in the bible does a raven come down and eat Gesmas' eyes.

This was Gibson being a little over zealous.

It was taken from the Old Testament. A little over the top for them to throw that in, and it isn't in any crucufixtion story in the New Testament.


Proverbs 30:17

But what does that have to do with the crucifixtion story?

Some of you hard core Jesus people square me away on this one.
 
You can take the man out of Hollywood, but you can't take Hollywood out of the man. You are correct there is no place in scripture that you can say a raven plucked the eye out of the unbelieving "cross mate." You said you enjoyed that part so I guess Hollywood made that point.
 
TWA dude:

I may never have suggested this to you, and that's probably because it never came up. There is a great deal of work being done by Jews who believe as we do, that Christ is the Messiah. My bad.

I mailed that list of statements (via the link to the site) regarding the characteristics and standards for the Messiah to Rabbi Ted Simon. I think we will find that he has some interesting insights.

His site.
 
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Timebuilder said:
There is a great deal of work being done by Jews who believe as we do, that Christ is the Messiah.

And your point is what? Like anyone else Jews are free to believe what they wish. I'm quite familiar with the group that calls themselves "Jews for Jesus" or "Messianic Jews". Make no mistake: belief in Jesus is NOT a Jewish belief.
 
Make no mistake: belief in Jesus is NOT a Jewish belief.

I agree that this is not a "traditional" Jewish belief, but according to the Jews, the Messiah IS a traditional Jewish belief.

And, Jesus IS the Messiah.

I'll pass along the info from the Rabbi when I get it.

Then the question will be: "whose Rabbi is right?" :)
 
Timebuilder: of course belief in the Messiah is a cornerstone of Judaism. I'm not going to debate with you on Jesus so you can abandon your proselytizing. You can parade all the "rabbis" you wish who can say whatever they want. Judaism doesn't believe in Jesus as the Messiah.

How would you feel about a group calling itself "Methodists for Muhammad" or "Baptists for Buddha"? It's a free country so more power to 'em.
 
Judaism doesn't believe in Jesus as the Messiah.

As a whole, no. The Bible speaks to this issue. In fact, most will not believe, but a "remnant" will be set aside and saved, because they have believed according to the New Covenant set down by God.



How would you feel about a group calling itself "Methodists for Muhammad" or "Baptists for Buddha"? It's a free country so more power to 'em.

I agree. More power to them.

However that would not change the fact, according to the Bible, that they follow a false doctrine, just as it does not change that the rejection of Christ as Messiah is also incorrect doctrine.

Nothing any human can say will change the truth of what God has said in His Word. That's the bottom line.

While Caiaphas, the high priest, may have misled his congregation at a time when they had other expectations of the Messiah, 2000 years of study and prayer should have revealed His nature to all but the hardest hearts. The fact that this has not happened is a reflection of the description given in Exodus, in 33:5:

"For the Lord had said to Moses, "Say to the children of Israel, 'You are a stiff-necked people. I could come up into your midst in one moment and consume you. Now therefore, take off your ornaments, that I may know what to do to you.' "

So, God identified the resistance of the Jews to following His word as being a case of unwillingness to follow.
 
Re: Part I

TWA Dude said:
Funny you should ask.

2) JESUS DID NOT EMBODY THE PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS OF MESSIAH

B. DESCENDENT OF DAVID

The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David!

3) MISTRANSLATED VERSES "REFERRING" TO JESUS

Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text -- which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.

A. VIRGIN BIRTH

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.
Looks like this guy's trying to argue against both sides of the same issue.

1) If Jesus was born of a virgin, he couldn't have been a descendant of David. Therefore, prophecy was not fulfilled, and he can't be the Messiah.

2) He was NOT born of a virgin, but rather of a young woman. Somehow man just messed up the translation, and ascribed virgin characteristics to Mary. But wait, if that's true, he must have been of the lineage of David after all. Doesn't that invalidate the point of 2) B. ???

What gives?

I think you need to pick a side and stick to it.


By the way, TWA Dude... didn't I read in another post somewhere that you haven't read the gospels? Why not? Are you afraid of what you might find there? Seriously - - I'm not being sarcastic or trying to be argumentative or anything. Honestly, I'm just curious why you haven't read them. It seems to me you'd be more comfortable arguing against something you've actually read rather than fighting against something you refuse to read. It can't hurt, can it?
 
Re: Part II

TWA Dude said:
5) CHRISTIANITY CONTRADICTS JEWISH THEOLOGY

The following theological points apply primarily to the Roman Catholic Church, the largest Christian denomination, and the one most familiar to the Western world.
Christianity contradicts Catholicism, too. It would be valid to compare the tenets of Judaism against the claims and principles of the New Testament, but not valid to compare it to a human institution. That the Catholic church requires prayers through intermediaries and celibacy among nuns and priests does not invalidate the teachings about Christianity found in the New Testament any more than teachings of one sect of Jews invalidates all of Judaism.

I invite you to study the New Testament that you reject and form your own opinions based on the greatest story ever told. You're doing yourself a disservice by relying on someone else to make those judgments for you.
 
4) JEWISH BELIEF IS BASED SOLELY ON NATIONAL REVELATION

This may be why there is such animosity against Messianic Jews. So-called "mainstream" Jews are not allowed to have a belief other than the one of the leading Rabbis who steer Judaism.
 
Timebuilder said:
4) JEWISH BELIEF IS BASED SOLELY ON NATIONAL REVELATION
This may be why there is such animosity against Messianic Jews. So-called "mainstream" Jews are not allowed to have a belief other than the one of the leading Rabbis who steer Judaism.

Actually, this point is worthy of more discussion. From TWA Dude's post...

Originally posted by TWA Dude
4) JEWISH BELIEF IS BASED SOLELY ON NATIONAL REVELATION

Of the 15,000 religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation -- i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He'll tell everyone, not just one person.
Here the rabbi assumes to know what makes sense to God, or attempts to force God to conform to what mankind thinks "makes sense." In fact, God did NOT speak to an entire nation, he spoke THROUGH individuals. He spoke through the patriarchs, and he spoke through chosen people. He did not speak to ALL of the Israelites at Sinai, he spoke to Moses.

If God spoke to all of Israel, it's odd that they must rely on rabbis to tell them what God said.

And for the record, God did not "start a religion." He established a law, or a system of laws. He established laws with Adam - - eat anything but this tree. He established laws through Moses - - not only the Ten Commandments, but an entire system of laws and ordinances. And he established a New Law, brought down and put into effect by His Son. He didn't start religions, because he doesn't have to. He is our creator, and is inherently worthy of worship. He didn't leave it up to us to decide how or when or where to worship Him - - we don't get to do what "makes sense" to us. Either we worship Him as he requires, or we are displeasing to Him.

Besides... who among us was there at Sinai?
 
I see.

The original covenant was made with Abraham, one man.

The New Covenant was made through Jesus. From the human perspective, one man.

Funny isn't it. The Great Comissions tells us in Matthew 28:

"18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen."

So, Jesus brought the New Covenant not only to the entire nation of Israel, but to every nation.
 
Re: Re: Part I

TonyC said:
By the way, TWA Dude... didn't I read in another post somewhere that you haven't read the gospels? Why not? Are you afraid of what you might find there? Seriously - - I'm not being sarcastic or trying to be argumentative or anything. Honestly, I'm just curious why you haven't read them. It seems to me you'd be more comfortable arguing against something you've actually read rather than fighting against something you refuse to read. It can't hurt, can it?

It's true that I haven't read the Gospels. Neither have I read the Koran or the Bagavad Gita. Fear is not the reason; boredom is. I've picked up the Gideon Bible and thumbed through it but seeing as it goes on about something I don't believe in the tedium made it impossible to continue. Have you read any of the Talmud? If not then why? Seeing as you're not Jewish I wouldn't expect you to read texts that define how a Jew must lead his life. By the same token why must I read the Christian Bible? Like yours, my beliefs won't be changed so easily.

BTW I'm not arguing nor fighting against anything. Unlike Timebuilder I have no desire to impose my beliefs on anyone. Super 80 asked me a question and I responded with a quote from a rabbi. I have no desire to debate the issue.

Dude
 

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