"The New ATA"

[jon coqtoestone]

I also pray that my AWA colleagues (not referring to anyone posting here) show y'all more respect that what APA showed TWA.

Dude, if showing respect consists of a warm welcome, professional and courteous behavior, and kindness of spirit (don't forget to throw in a healthy dash of "gentlemanliness" for good measure), then I know of no AWA pilot who wouldn't accord the ATA crews their deserved respect.

If your definition of respect is keeping ATA 4-year captains in the left seat, with all that entitles, while 6-year AWA FO's are still waiting with baited breath for upgrade, they will be disappointed.

Of course, since the age 60 rule will soon morph to age 62, or more, upgrade awards just might not happen much around the cactus plant in the "nearer" future anyway.

Cheers!

 

[TWA Dude]

If your definition of respect is keeping ATA 4-year captains in the left seat, with all that entitles, while 6-year AWA FO's are still waiting with baited breath for upgrade, they will be disappointed.

While I think it's premature to start debating those kind of specifics I'll still reply. What makes you so sure that an ATA captain keeping his seat will slow an AWA FO's upgrade? What entitles an AWA FO to a quicker upgrade just because we bought ATA? A well-thought and reasonable integration will afford protections without any unfair gains. I certainly wouldn't promise that nobody will lose their seat. In the AA/TWA integration if the company had kept growing the fences would've prevented anybody from losing their seat (not to mention their job). Of course when things turned sour it was the ex-TWA guys who suffered the brunt of the pain. We became their furlough-fodder. Unfortunately I can forsee that happening again.

 

[jon coqtoestone]

Dude, I agree with you in that it is premature to debate specifics. What I think is fair is different than what an ATA person would think is fair, which may very well be different than what you consider fair.

I guess my real tune depends on whether this turns out to be a merger or an acquisition. If it is a merger, then I support a relative seniority integration (global, not seat-specific -- ie, 20th% on ATA's total list fits in at 20th% on AWA's list).

If it is an acquisition, then there ought to, at the very least, be real furlough protection for pilots on AWA property prior to the acquisition. A total acquisition may very well lead to furloughs, and I will be less than gruntled if I hit the street again while somebody with only a couple months on the property "lucks" into still being employed as an AWA pilot.

I know full well that life ain't fair, and I'm not waiting for any rose garden promises. If this deal goes down, we'll both be lucky to still have jobs a year from now . . . Now that'll be something to be thankful for!

 

[rudderdog]

If your definition of respect is keeping ATA 4-year captains in the left seat, with all that entitles, while 6-year AWA FO's are still waiting with baited breath for upgrade, they will be disappointed.

Don't exaggerate to try to make a baseless point. There are no 4-year captains at ATA. 6 and 7 year captains, yes.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Don't worry. our lovely ALPA folks would never let anything bad happen to us.

 

[TWA Dude]

I guess my real tune depends on whether this turns out to be a merger or an acquisition.

It really shouldn't matter. Like the expression "career expectations" it's just an excuse to justify whatever the victor decides. I agree that everyone's idea of "fair" will differ which is why the Allegheny-Mohawk provisions call for a neutral arbitrator if talks fail.

 

[jon coqtoestone]

My apologies . . .

Don't exaggerate to try to make a baseless point. There are no 4-year captains at ATA. 6 and 7 year captains, yes.

I heard there were captains at ATA with a hire date of 2000 -- should've checked the accuracy of that.

I'll just stick my head back in the puddle now.

Ya'all take care now, God bless, peace be with you. Ranter out.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

I heard there were captains at ATA with a hire date of 2000 -- should've checked the accuracy of that.

I'll just stick my head back in the puddle now.

Ya'all take care now, God bless, peace be with you. Ranter out.

No need for that JC. Many of us have heard the same thing including some of the union people as well. Is this mis information????

WD.

 

[CaptSeth]

There are no four year captains. Six year, yes, but that's also true of AWA.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

There are no four year captains. Six year, yes, but that's also true of AWA.

AUTHOR UNKNOWN!!!!
So don't go giving me a bunch of s hit over it...




A bankrupt carrier's pilots can be divided into several expectations categories: First off - none of ATA's F/O's should have any expectation of a position on our seniority list except as a new hire. This is obvious having seen what happened at TWA and US Airways. All F/O's were quickly furloughed during bankruptcy. Half of ATA's Captain list should have a career expectation of being integrated as an F/O only based on this same experience. Over 1/2 of TWA's and US Airway's Captains are F/O's after the bankruptcies. The other half should only have an expectation of being junior captains at the surviving carrier. And this is precisely to protect the career expectations of AWA pilots.

Finally, the number of ATA's pilots brought over should be underestimated. This is to protect all pilots on the final integrated list from downgrade/furloughs once the final integration is complete. In other words - we should not bring excess ATA pilots into the fold who will immediately benefit from expansion and integration opportunities. If the current ratio is 10 crews per airplane the limit should be set at a lower number - say six ATA crews per airplane so that all future training opportunities will go to AWA pilots. All future hires should be set aside for the remaining ATA pilots in seniority order - perhaps an immediate furlough is in order with an orderly recall once the integration and training is under control. And of course if this merger is successful, then these pilots will be back on line much more quickly than has occurred during other recent bankruptcy scenarios. To do it any other way would lead to incredible labor disharmony. How do explain to a recent former TWA/U

S Airways bankruptcy/furloughed AWA new hire pilot that a bankrupt ATA pilot is going to displace him/her and put them further down the list or worse - on furlough?

AWA pilots should not be naive to think that the final list will be a straight staple - nor should we expect to see the opposite scenario where ATA pilots facing an uncertain bankruptcy outcome displace many AWA pilots - but this integration is a negotiation - and it is critical that we have a complete understanding of where we are and what strengths we bring to the table.

WD.

 

[TriStar_drvr]

I heard there were captains at ATA with a hire date of 2000 -- should've checked the accuracy of that.

I'll just stick my head back in the puddle now.

Ya'all take care now, God bless, peace be with you. Ranter out.

You were correct. There are several Captains at ATA with a January 2000 hire date.

 

[CaptSeth]

Interesting ideas. Fortunately, neither of us are on the respective merger committees, so we can reserve our arguments to this site. Like I said, I'll get back to you on Dec. 16 and maybe we can have it out. Or not. Obviously, there is a retort to everything you said, whiskey, but it's just so pointless to even entertain the issues right now.

 

[jettypeguy]

The most junior captain is 737 hire date 1/03/00

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Interesting ideas. Fortunately, neither of us are on the respective merger committees, so we can reserve our arguments to this site. Like I said, I'll get back to you on Dec. 16 and maybe we can have it out. Or not. Obviously, there is a retort to everything you said, whiskey, but it's just so pointless to even entertain the issues right now.

Capt Seth, didn't I say the author is unknown????? So a retort is unnecessary!!!!


Now not all the things that message said I agree with but I am sure you will agree that 10 crews per a/c is EXTREMELY EXCESSIVE!!! That was done merely to and I use the term loosely to protect the career expectation of your pilots. You are correct in the statement that a debate should in fact be saved until 12/10/04 and no matter what happens, if we ever find ourselves working the same flight in the future I will still be expecting to talk s hit over drinks during the overnight!!!

Life is too short and my tolorence for the bullsh it is approaching a low point.

WD.

 

[Pickle]

There are some just over 5 year captains at ATA. I was hired in Oct of 1999 and was awarded captian in April of 2004, released to the line in July of 2004. I just a few weeks ago had my fifth anniversary, and yes, there are some captains here who were hired in 2000. The most junior person in my upgrade class was hire 1/3/2000. So, yes, there are some captains who have not yet celebrated their 5th anniversary with the company.

 

[75M]

Wow, I really thought the APA had the market cornered on greed. Let me try to inject some reason and experience into this discussion.

1. "What's fair to me might not be fair to you". Puh-leez. Anybody over the age of five SHOULD be able to see a scenario from somebody else's prespective and make a reasonable judgment on whether something is "fair" or not. What I hear when somebody says "What's fair to me might not be fair to you" is "What's best for me is not what's best for you".

2. "Mergers vs. Acquisitions". All mergers are acquisitions, period.

3. "Bankrupt pilots should feel lucky to have a job". Let me explain something. There are no bankrupt pilots (well, maybe in their private lives, but that's not important right now) there are only bankrupt airlines. UAL pilots weren't the shizzle in the 90's when the company was making $8.00/share, nor are they the scurge of the industry now that their COMPANY is in BK. If anything I give them credit for keeping the blue side up during some very stressful times. Personally, I think the ATA pilots are the best in the industry, they definitely do the most challenging flying. Besides, we should ALL feel lucky to have a job. Furthermore, I don't think we'll see any kind of merger/acquisition WITHOUT a concurrent bankruptcy filing in the foreseeable future.

4. "Career Expectations". In this business, you gotta be kidding me. It wasn't too long ago that AWA was in BK. It was even more recent that AWA was in real trouble, both financial and regulatory. And from what I can see it's still a house of cards. For an AWA pilot, or any pilot for that matter to use "career expectations" to justify a windfall is ridiculous. I'll argue that an AWA/ATA deal will actually enhance the "career expectations" of the AWA group, (due to the international charter, Hawaii flying and additional national presence).

Finally, both pilot lists are relatively young. Whatever you do, you're gonna have to live with it for a long time. Don't make the next thirty years of your career miserable over greed.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Wow, I really thought the APA had the market cornered on greed. Let me try to inject some reason and experience into this discussion.

1. "What's fair to me might not be fair to you". Puh-leez. Anybody over the age of five SHOULD be able to see a scenario from somebody else's prespective and make a reasonable judgment on whether something is "fair" or not. What I hear when somebody says "What's fair to me might not be fair to you" is "What's best for me is not what's best for you".

2. "Mergers vs. Acquisitions". All mergers are acquisitions, period.

3. "Bankrupt pilots should feel lucky to have a job". Let me explain something. There are no bankrupt pilots (well, maybe in their private lives, but that's not important right now) there are only bankrupt airlines. UAL pilots weren't the shizzle in the 90's when the company was making $8.00/share, nor are they the scurge of the industry now that their COMPANY is in BK. If anything I give them credit for keeping the blue side up during some very stressful times. Personally, I think the ATA pilots are the best in the industry, they definitely do the most challenging flying. Besides, we should ALL feel lucky to have a job. Furthermore, I don't think we'll see any kind of merger/acquisition WITHOUT a concurrent bankruptcy filing in the foreseeable future.

4. "Career Expectations". In this business, you gotta be kidding me. It wasn't too long ago that AWA was in BK. It was even more recent that AWA was in real trouble, both financial and regulatory. And from what I can see it's still a house of cards. For an AWA pilot, or any pilot for that matter to use "career expectations" to justify a windfall is ridiculous. I'll argue that an AWA/ATA deal will actually enhance the "career expectations" of the AWA group, (due to the international charter, Hawaii flying and additional national presence).

Finally, both pilot lists are relatively young. Whatever you do, you're gonna have to live with it for a long time. Don't make the next thirty years of your career miserable over greed.

Some good points there 75M but let me ask you this. My wife and I dined at Mortons steak house last evening. It Took a reservation and $200 to complete the experience. Now since I/ we dined there last night should I be allowed to go again tonight WITHOUT a reservation and bump those who have based solely on the fact that I was there last night and they weren't so I am entitled??? C'mon. This ain't greed brother, and if it is please re-read the above. I was in trouble yesterday true that. But today I am not, you are and you need my help but you want me to let you cut the line for that help!!! I want to help but I just don't want to get jacked doing it...

WD.

 

[75M]

This ain't greed brother, and if it is please re-read the above. I was in trouble yesterday true that. But today I am not, you are and you need my help but you want me to let you cut the line for that help!!! I want to help but I just don't want to get jacked doing it...

No entitlements, just a recognition that you could easily find yourself in the same position as the other guy and as a result should have the intestinal fortitude to do the right thing. Besides, fortunes shift pretty quickly in this business and its virtually inevitible that one day you're gonna have to go begging. The last thing you want is to have your treatment of another pilot group come back and used against you.

At least at that point you'll be able to hold your head high and know that you did the right thing

 

[Wiskey Driver]

No entitlements, just a recognition that you could easily find yourself in the same position as the other guy and as a result should have the intestinal fortitude to do the right thing. Besides, fortunes shift pretty quickly in this business and its virtually inevitible that one day you're gonna have to go begging. The last thing you want is to have your treatment of another pilot group come back and used against you.

At least at that point you'll be able to hold your head high and know that you did the right thing

Ok I admit it can happen to anyone. SO what is the right thing????? Look man, I ain't preaching here "give'em pref interviews here as some other carriers YOUR OWN INCLUDED" have suggested. I'm not even saying go stright staple but 10 crews per a/c??? and DOH ahhh don't think so!! Like I said before I want to help but I don't want to get jacked doing it.

WD.

 

[HalinTexas]

Whiskey,
It's the cost of belonging to a union. No matter if it's a bankruptcy. AWA and ATA are ALPA. AWA has a publicly stated interest in acquiring all of ATA's assets and will bid as such. Therefore it is a merger, and ALPA has guidelines to follow.

Do I think that everyone will be happy? No, but remember, when everyone is a little ticked, then it's a fair deal.

Every other union in this country honors the service of its members when they move to another company. Why is it different for the airline industry?

AT&T and Cingular, Sears and K-Mart, both are recent merger/acquisitions, and I don't think that one company or employee group is going to demand that the other be "stapled" or be required to undergo preferential interviews.

ATA's and Airtran's offer of preferential interviews for employment, which include Chicago Express RJ's is pretty **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** insulting. AWA and SWA offers are not public at this time and are therefore not germane to this discussion. There are pilots at ATA that have forgotten more things than you know about flying. There is a wealth of experience and knowledge that is NOT being respected in this deal. I don't think that any pilot at ATA is expecting DOH. I think we all want to follow the guidelines set forth in our contract and that are so stated in ALPA National policy. Fences are also probably expected and are appropriate. "Career expectations" are subjective and not a reasonable criteria in determining integration. Employees are important to the success of a company, but they do not determine the ultimate success or failure of a company. They usually don't get credit for success, but seem to get undeserved blame for failure. Employees don't negotiate aircraft leases, fuel purchases or decide where we operate. Managment does. Therefore, employees that are part of an acquisition/merger should NOT be treated as failures deserving of less respect and integrated as such.