The Negatives of the new Netjets proposal

[marqmarq]

I don't get it

Our contract will be extended to 2013. We get a big bump now. FOs get taken care of. Junior captains do well, senior captains, maybe not so much. If we wait we HOPE that we can get something better in 2010. No guarantees here except what we agree to now. IF the company meets several benchmarks, including the incorporation of NJI, then the contract goes to 2016. And what happens then? Well, captains will see a $10k+ raise each year between 2013 and 2016! More importantly, if we wait, who is going to negociate for us? It'll be the same folks who gave us the 2005 CBA and the IBB. The same ones who recommend the IBB. Those screaming and yelling the loudest about the imperfections are incapable of leading the pilot group (have they run for office??) and/or they cannot or will not make the sacrifices of the current leadership.

Questions and dialogue are wonderful and necessary. Close review by the pilot group has pointed out some errors and given the leadership a chance to clarify new and confusing language.

While change is scary, the fear will recede, and eventually we'll all start bit*hing about the contract because that is what pilots do. Otherwise, he IBB is a good deal for the pilot group.

 

[RNObased]

Ok NJA folks, we keep hearing from our CP at Flexjet that we only talk about the good things from this new proposal and that its not fair to only talk about the good things. For our benefit, what are the bad things in this new deal so we may discuss?

Sounds like your CP is on a fishing mission.

There is some stuff that I think is bad, but that is from the inside of NJA looking at it. Most of the bad stuff is internal changes. If you are on the outside looking in, you would be hard pressed to find a lot of bad.

Example; I know guys over at Flex used to work 6 on 4 off, using 28 days as a month. (Personally that is a BS tatic for getting more work out of you, but I won't go there right now) So say you did this on the 18 days schedule at NJA, if it gets voted in. My base salary would be around 135,000 and that is on a real month, not a fake 28 day one, is your salary going to be anywhere close to that???

 

[doylehargraves]

RNO, good point. Something "bad" to you guys might not necessarily appear bad to us. It's all relative I suppose. Bottom line here is they should give us a raise based on the last 2 great years we've had. I wonder what would happen if you guys vote "no" and then we get a raise that surpasses NJ?? Might create some tension over there.

 

[imacdog]

I love the idea of working at Netjets. Great airplanes, unlimited route variety, very good money relative to all regionals and even some national airlines. However, I do get concerned when I think of the long-term nature of this proposed contract. A deal that could potentially last through 2016 is too long - I agree with On Your Six.

I also agree that the domicile offer is just one big carrot being dangled in front of the junior pilots who had been stiffed by the restrictive 5 domicile policy. Netjets could easily institute 20, 50 or 100 domiciles if they wanted to, but instead they use it as a bargaining chip. Both Citationshares and Avantair offer 20-40 domiciles each.

Given the choice, I would probably vote it DOWN as well. Netjets will have to make changes if they expect to hire the quality of pilots they promise their owners. Better pay and domicile selection will be required to do that. I just don't think you should give up your flexibility in the short term with a super-long term contract. That sounds foolish and short-sighted to me.

Do you even work for NJA? Have you read the entire TA?

 

[netjetwife]

More importantly, if we wait, who is going to negociate for us? It'll be the same folks who gave us the 2005 CBA and the IBB. The same ones who recommend the IBB. Those screaming and yelling the loudest about the imperfections are incapable of leading the pilot group (have they run for office??) and/or they cannot or will not make the sacrifices of the current leadership.

Mx2, The last part of your statement is more realistic than the beginning. I think it's a mistake to assume that the current negotiators of the IBB proposal would make the same effort all over again IF the pilot group gives their work a vote of no confidence. The natural reaction would be to suggest those dissatisfied should take their place; as in "Be my guest" and other less polite expressions. Even if the present team was willing, human nature says the company would not be. (Insert the angry, crude phrase you use in that situation). IBB was written in a spirit of cooperation and ushers in a new era of mutual respect. The company is meeting the pilots half way. If that effort is rejected it could set 1108 back to the days of the contract battle, and the current leadership has made it clear they want to keep moving forward. Positive reinforcement (voting yes) may very well lead to another round of talks a few years down the road. [personal observation and deductive reasoning only]

The downside of the IBB proposal, then, is the test that is forced on the new relationship that both sides have invested heavily in with time and effort. Those who say it's not just about the money and the bases are right. Far more is at stake and the potential pay off is huge. IBB represents a whole new way of doing business for the NJ pilots and management. The proposal is a sign post to a brighter, more secure future.

 

[RNObased]

RNO, good point. Something "bad" to you guys might not necessarily appear bad to us. It's all relative I suppose. Bottom line here is they should give us a raise based on the last 2 great years we've had. I wonder what would happen if you guys vote "no" and then we get a raise that surpasses NJ?? Might create some tension over there.

Doyle,
Yeah, if it went down there would be issues, you are correct in that regard. However I think it is passing, with a yes vote of somewhere around 80%. (This number has been going up, as more and more hardcores post they are voting yes). The fact is this is a decent deal, notice I didn't say exellent, and helps the pilot group in the long term. (Yes, I know there are flaws so don't jump all over me about that last statement, I have read the IBB twice already)

As for you guys, I agree you need a raise, will they give it to you out of the kindness of there hearts??? Time will tell. As for it being more then ours??? Don't know about that.

Have you ever considered the theory that RTS put out these pay scales to put pressure on the mangement of the other fractionals???

 

[On Your Six]

Doyle,
Yeah, if it went down there would be issues, you are correct in that regard. However I think it is passing, with a yes vote of somewhere around 80%. (This number has been going up, as more and more hardcores post they are voting yes). The fact is this is a decent deal, notice I didn't say exellent, and helps the pilot group in the long term. (Yes, I know there are flaws so don't jump all over me about that last statement, I have read the IBB twice already)

As for you guys, I agree you need a raise, will they give it to you out of the kindness of there hearts??? Time will tell. As for it being more then ours??? Don't know about that.

Have you ever considered the theory that RTS put out these pay scales to put pressure on the mangement of the other fractionals???[/quote]

Maybe RTS did it to poach the pilots Citationshares claims it has who are the "best pilots in the industry." I've seen CS's corporate video and that's what it claims. Clearly those pilots need to move to Netjets.

 

[pilotyip]

Would this not be an equipment lock.

That 39 month seat lock still doesnt apply to a captain upgrade. Even if you bid in to the falcon as an fo which incurs another 39 month seat lock after you complete your inital seatlock you can still upgrade to captain and your seat lock just rolls over.

this not be an equipment lock or combination thereof?

 

[av8tor4239]

At ASA our contract was signed in 1998, it became amendable in 2002 and we just got a ta last week in 2007.. THAT IS 9 YEARS OPERATING ON A PRE 9/11 CONTRACT. And out QOL is still in the TOP 3 of all regionals..

5 years of negotiations.. almost 300 mediated sessions.

This is a great opportunity for NetJet pilots and to vote this down would be INSANE..

MAKE SURE YOU READ THE LANGUAGE AND WHAT THE COMPANY HAS TO DO TO MAKE IT EXTEND UNTIL 2016. DO NOT BASE YOU VOTE ON WHAT YOU READ ON FLIGHTINFO.COM

 

[Guitar Guy]

this not be an equipment lock or combination thereof?

Upon hiring, a new-hire would get a 39-month "Initial Equipment Lock in his aircraft type and duty position", which starts the first day he reports for any company-required training. This initial lock will not prevent said crewmember from upgrading to his first captain position, regardless of aircraft type. If that upgrade is in a different type, there is a new 39-month equipment lock. If the first upgrade is in type, only the remaining portion of the original 39-month equipment lock still applies.

If a new-hire, after his initial 39-month lock, switches to a new fleet still as an SIC, a new 39-month lock is incurred. However, unlike our current CBA, that person could take the first available in upgrade in a different fleet without restriction from the new seat lock. In that instance, the balance of the second lock would be added to the new lock incurred when taking the upgrade. For instance, say someone is hired into the 400XP and after 39 months, bids to the G200. Then, 14 months after getting the G200, that person bids and is awarded an upgrade in the Encore. That person would have the portion of the G200 lock (25 months) added to the new Encore lock, for a total lock in the Encore of 64 months (39+25 months). (And yes, in this example, the person would find himself in the E-boat for over 5 years.)

At least that's how I understand it to work from reading Section 15.4.

Disclaimer: don't read anything into upgrade projections based on my example. Your mileage may vary...

 

[CA1900]

this not be an equipment lock or combination thereof?

Not in the new TA. If it passes, the "subsequent equipment lock" for FOs -- i.e., bidding another airplane before upgrade -- will not delay your first upgrade, unlike the current contract.

If an FO bids a different airplane as an FO, and is later awarded an upgrade during his equipment lock, he can still upgrade into it. The remainder of his FO equipment lock will be added to the 39-month lock on his new airplane. (If he upgrades into the same type he's already flying, no new locks are added; it's only if his switches airplanes again.)

 

[rettofly]

Maybe RTS did it to poach the pilots Citationshares claims it has who are the "best pilots in the industry." I've seen CS's corporate video and that's what it claims. Clearly those pilots need to move to Netjets.

I thought Flex has the "best pilots in the industry". No, wait.. it's Avantair! No, it's NJA. Wrong! Flops has the best pilots. Wrong again. Brand (insert a name) has the best pilots. Just ask the Marketing weasels at ((insert a name). They'll tell you.

Who needs all the hype about who has the best pilots? In my seven years and three different employers in the Frax, I only see a whole bunch of folks who have achieved a remarkable safety and customer satisfaction record.

Compensation and QOL varies between companies, but the pilot groups are all "the best".

Bottom line: The hype about who has the best pilots is just hype.

 

[On Your Six]

Upon hiring, a new-hire would get a 39-month "Initial Equipment Lock in his aircraft type and duty position", which starts the first day he reports for any company-required training. This initial lock will not prevent said crewmember from upgrading to his first captain position, regardless of aircraft type. If that upgrade is in a different type, there is a new 39-month equipment lock. If the first upgrade is in type, only the remaining portion of the original 39-month equipment lock still applies.

If a new-hire, after his initial 39-month lock, switches to a new fleet still as an SIC, a new 39-month lock is incurred. However, unlike our current CBA, that person could take the first available in upgrade in a different fleet without restriction from the new seat lock. In that instance, the balance of the second lock would be added to the new lock incurred when taking the upgrade. For instance, say someone is hired into the 400XP and after 39 months, bids to the G200. Then, 14 months after getting the G200, that person bids and is awarded an upgrade in the Encore. That person would have the portion of the G200 lock (25 months) added to the new Encore lock, for a total lock in the Encore of 64 months (39+25 months). (And yes, in this example, the person would find himself in the E-boat for over 5 years.)

At least that's how I understand it to work from reading Section 15.4.

Disclaimer: don't read anything into upgrade projections based on my example. Your mileage may vary...

5 years on the Encore with no APU!!!!!! That's reason enough to vote this thing down...

 

[NJA bound]

If you dont want the no APU A/C than dont bid upgrade in it. That was easy.

 

[imacdog]

It's only five years if you want it to be. Otherwise, wait for the lock on your current seat to be up, and whatever plane you upgrade into will incur the standard 39-month lock. It's all about choice.