The Negatives of the new Netjets proposal

[RNObased]

RNO, good point. Something "bad" to you guys might not necessarily appear bad to us. It's all relative I suppose. Bottom line here is they should give us a raise based on the last 2 great years we've had. I wonder what would happen if you guys vote "no" and then we get a raise that surpasses NJ?? Might create some tension over there.

Doyle,
Yeah, if it went down there would be issues, you are correct in that regard. However I think it is passing, with a yes vote of somewhere around 80%. (This number has been going up, as more and more hardcores post they are voting yes). The fact is this is a decent deal, notice I didn't say exellent, and helps the pilot group in the long term. (Yes, I know there are flaws so don't jump all over me about that last statement, I have read the IBB twice already)

As for you guys, I agree you need a raise, will they give it to you out of the kindness of there hearts??? Time will tell. As for it being more then ours??? Don't know about that.

Have you ever considered the theory that RTS put out these pay scales to put pressure on the mangement of the other fractionals???

 

[On Your Six]

Doyle,
Yeah, if it went down there would be issues, you are correct in that regard. However I think it is passing, with a yes vote of somewhere around 80%. (This number has been going up, as more and more hardcores post they are voting yes). The fact is this is a decent deal, notice I didn't say exellent, and helps the pilot group in the long term. (Yes, I know there are flaws so don't jump all over me about that last statement, I have read the IBB twice already)

As for you guys, I agree you need a raise, will they give it to you out of the kindness of there hearts??? Time will tell. As for it being more then ours??? Don't know about that.

Have you ever considered the theory that RTS put out these pay scales to put pressure on the mangement of the other fractionals???[/quote]

Maybe RTS did it to poach the pilots Citationshares claims it has who are the "best pilots in the industry." I've seen CS's corporate video and that's what it claims. Clearly those pilots need to move to Netjets.

 

[pilotyip]

Would this not be an equipment lock.

That 39 month seat lock still doesnt apply to a captain upgrade. Even if you bid in to the falcon as an fo which incurs another 39 month seat lock after you complete your inital seatlock you can still upgrade to captain and your seat lock just rolls over.

this not be an equipment lock or combination thereof?

 

[av8tor4239]

At ASA our contract was signed in 1998, it became amendable in 2002 and we just got a ta last week in 2007.. THAT IS 9 YEARS OPERATING ON A PRE 9/11 CONTRACT. And out QOL is still in the TOP 3 of all regionals..

5 years of negotiations.. almost 300 mediated sessions.

This is a great opportunity for NetJet pilots and to vote this down would be INSANE..

MAKE SURE YOU READ THE LANGUAGE AND WHAT THE COMPANY HAS TO DO TO MAKE IT EXTEND UNTIL 2016. DO NOT BASE YOU VOTE ON WHAT YOU READ ON FLIGHTINFO.COM

 

[Guitar Guy]

this not be an equipment lock or combination thereof?

Upon hiring, a new-hire would get a 39-month "Initial Equipment Lock in his aircraft type and duty position", which starts the first day he reports for any company-required training. This initial lock will not prevent said crewmember from upgrading to his first captain position, regardless of aircraft type. If that upgrade is in a different type, there is a new 39-month equipment lock. If the first upgrade is in type, only the remaining portion of the original 39-month equipment lock still applies.

If a new-hire, after his initial 39-month lock, switches to a new fleet still as an SIC, a new 39-month lock is incurred. However, unlike our current CBA, that person could take the first available in upgrade in a different fleet without restriction from the new seat lock. In that instance, the balance of the second lock would be added to the new lock incurred when taking the upgrade. For instance, say someone is hired into the 400XP and after 39 months, bids to the G200. Then, 14 months after getting the G200, that person bids and is awarded an upgrade in the Encore. That person would have the portion of the G200 lock (25 months) added to the new Encore lock, for a total lock in the Encore of 64 months (39+25 months). (And yes, in this example, the person would find himself in the E-boat for over 5 years.)

At least that's how I understand it to work from reading Section 15.4.

Disclaimer: don't read anything into upgrade projections based on my example. Your mileage may vary...

 

[CA1900]

this not be an equipment lock or combination thereof?

Not in the new TA. If it passes, the "subsequent equipment lock" for FOs -- i.e., bidding another airplane before upgrade -- will not delay your first upgrade, unlike the current contract.

If an FO bids a different airplane as an FO, and is later awarded an upgrade during his equipment lock, he can still upgrade into it. The remainder of his FO equipment lock will be added to the 39-month lock on his new airplane. (If he upgrades into the same type he's already flying, no new locks are added; it's only if his switches airplanes again.)

 

[rettofly]

Maybe RTS did it to poach the pilots Citationshares claims it has who are the "best pilots in the industry." I've seen CS's corporate video and that's what it claims. Clearly those pilots need to move to Netjets.

I thought Flex has the "best pilots in the industry". No, wait.. it's Avantair! No, it's NJA. Wrong! Flops has the best pilots. Wrong again. Brand (insert a name) has the best pilots. Just ask the Marketing weasels at ((insert a name). They'll tell you.

Who needs all the hype about who has the best pilots? In my seven years and three different employers in the Frax, I only see a whole bunch of folks who have achieved a remarkable safety and customer satisfaction record.

Compensation and QOL varies between companies, but the pilot groups are all "the best".

Bottom line: The hype about who has the best pilots is just hype.

 

[On Your Six]

Upon hiring, a new-hire would get a 39-month "Initial Equipment Lock in his aircraft type and duty position", which starts the first day he reports for any company-required training. This initial lock will not prevent said crewmember from upgrading to his first captain position, regardless of aircraft type. If that upgrade is in a different type, there is a new 39-month equipment lock. If the first upgrade is in type, only the remaining portion of the original 39-month equipment lock still applies.

If a new-hire, after his initial 39-month lock, switches to a new fleet still as an SIC, a new 39-month lock is incurred. However, unlike our current CBA, that person could take the first available in upgrade in a different fleet without restriction from the new seat lock. In that instance, the balance of the second lock would be added to the new lock incurred when taking the upgrade. For instance, say someone is hired into the 400XP and after 39 months, bids to the G200. Then, 14 months after getting the G200, that person bids and is awarded an upgrade in the Encore. That person would have the portion of the G200 lock (25 months) added to the new Encore lock, for a total lock in the Encore of 64 months (39+25 months). (And yes, in this example, the person would find himself in the E-boat for over 5 years.)

At least that's how I understand it to work from reading Section 15.4.

Disclaimer: don't read anything into upgrade projections based on my example. Your mileage may vary...

5 years on the Encore with no APU!!!!!! That's reason enough to vote this thing down...

 

[NJA bound]

If you dont want the no APU A/C than dont bid upgrade in it. That was easy.

 

[imacdog]

It's only five years if you want it to be. Otherwise, wait for the lock on your current seat to be up, and whatever plane you upgrade into will incur the standard 39-month lock. It's all about choice.

 

[NJA bound]

What's going to happen here within the next few years is uprades are gonna come to a hault or few and far between if the companies plans to limit the size of the fleet happen, because under 135 regs you can fly until you die (or cant pass your first class), I have flown 135 with a 78 year old capt that flew a Learjet great, he may have finally retired though, said his wife was going to make him

There are just not that many people leaving or retiring, so if you want the upgrade you may not get a second chance for a long time if you wait for a plane with an APU.

 

[Ultra Grump]

In my seven years and three different employers in the Frax,

How did you manage that?

 

[RNObased]

5 years on the Encore with no APU!!!!!! That's reason enough to vote this thing down...

Yeah, that is a great, short sighted way to handle it.

 

[Guitar Guy]

5 years on the Encore with no APU!!!!!! That's reason enough to vote this thing down...

I know of several people here who've been on the poor, little, non-APU Ultra/Encore fleet for well over 5 years and they've suffered no ill effects as a result. In fact, add a check airman position or other extra-duty po$ition and you'll find that those guys are "$uffering" along very nicely even without a vaunted APU.

On Your Six - out of curiosity, are you employed at NetJets?

 

[Guitar Guy]

.....

 

[On Your Six]

I know of several people here who've been on the poor, little, non-APU Ultra/Encore fleet for well over 5 years and they've suffered no ill effects as a result. In fact, add a check airman position or other extra-duty po$ition and you'll find that those guys are "$uffering" along very nicely even without a vaunted APU.

On Your Six - out of curiosity, are you employed at NetJets?

No but I have a few good friends who work there including a few senior PICs and a guy who was hired about a year ago. I was just joking about the APU - although it is nice to have one and not be dependent. If I didn't enjoy my current gig so much I would have probably applied to NJA a few years ago myself.

 

[marqmarq]

APU ... sissies

For those of you who haven't flown without an APU, you are really overrating the whole issue. Like any situation, you learn to adapt and find ways to minimize your discomfort... window shades, gpus, hangars... etc. I flew the Ultra for six years. Not having an APU is an issue about 6 days a year. I actually enjoyed the fact that we might be on ramp somewhere where we didn't need to wear earplugs. Silence is golden! I made the move to an aircraft with an apu because I wanted a new challenge.... I don't believe mastering the apu was part of that challenge. Additionally, the trips that we made in the Ultra were fun. We went to a lot of out of the way places... quite often we were the only jet on the ramp. Often I feel that having an APU somehow makes someone feel like 'an airline pilot', kinda like wearing a hat or living in their parents basement, rather than just a little more comfortable during extreme temperatures. I'd have no problem going back to a non-apu aircraft if it meant a better QOL. I can sweat a few days a year... or at least my FO can in order to get a better schedule or vacation. I doubt that I will, but the APU wouldn't be a factor. So, upgrading in an ultra, encore, bbj, etc. is an UPGRADE. You are a captain, getting paid on the captain scale. It is not a sentence. If, 39 months later, you wish to and can TRANSITION to another aircraft, then do so. Enjoy the journey and cash the checks... stop whinning about.... oh, just stop whinning....

 

[LAZYB]

...I wonder what would happen if you guys vote "no" and then we get a raise that surpasses NJ?? Might create some tension over there.

Wouldn't hold my breath...

 

[notaNJApilot]

Netjets could easily institute 20, 50 or 100 domiciles if they wanted to, but instead they use it as a bargaining chip.

I read this very argument over and over on here, and it always boggles my mind that you are surprised by it. With the 5 domiciles, NJ is profitable and still attracting qualified applicants. There is no need for the Company to voluntarily open additional domiciles when it can/is be used as a bargaining chip. Do you seriously think the IBT would give up it's "loop holes" like captain bypass and H-day placement out of the kindness of it's heart? It may take until 2010 for the efficiency of a 5 domicile system to be apparent, but if this TA gets voted down, I would not be surprised if we stuck with 5 until 2010.

If the TA fails, the Company will continue to make it's millions without having to pay the pilots more. Maybe then us Company folk would get a share of that profit. We'll take your signing bonus and give the money we save from your increased salaries to Berkshire!

It sucks that 86%(or whatever the number was) were happy with the current CBA, but the new one only needs 50.1% to pass. Seems like there will be more unhappy workers with the new TA than there was/is with the current CBA.

 

[CA1900]

It may take until 2010 for the efficiency of a 5 domicile system to be apparent...

As someone who knows our business, you should know full well that basing all the pilots in a few places, when the aircraft are scattered around the country, is about as inefficient as you can be.

The company is wasting money on more and more first-class tickets for me, because that's all they can find out of PBI. Meanwhile I live in Orlando, with dramatically more--and cheaper--air service. Another 3 years isn't going to change that fact.