The Negatives of the new Netjets proposal

[gutshotdraw]

What causes you to make this assessment?

In order to have the right to automatically extend the CBA an additional 30 months in 2012, the company must add 10 crew bases (no biggie), adjust all wage scales according to the Consumer Price Index (a theoretical wash since owner management fees will do the same), offer health benefits equal or greater to existing (potential problem because of dramatic increases in the cost of health care in the U.S.), and the biggie: at least 85% of international flying done by 1108 seniority list pilots.

After re-reading the section and carefully considering the situation, I think it may play out as follows:

1. The TA will be ratified.
2. RTS will not voluntarily merge NJI pilots into the 1108 CBA in the near term (the only way to meet the 85% threshold is for NJI to be part of 1108).
3. 1108 will file the single-carrier petition in November of next year (for which a decision won't be reached until '09-'10 timeframe).
4. If 1108 wins, RTS will meet the other specifications required before the deadline and automatically extend the agreement 30 months.
5. If 1108 loses, RTS has two options: A) Allow the agreement to expire in 2013 and open new negotiations or B) If it makes more economic sense, THEN voluntarily merge NJI into 1108 and extend the contract 30 months.

No matter what, RTS has gained a minimum of 3 years operating NJI at a multi-million dollar cost savings versus adding 300+ pilots to the CBA (overtime, per diem, sick leave, etc.).

Overall, I think the TA is a win for 1108 but the 85% international agreement will actually delay resolution of the merger issue and will likely prevent the automatic 30 month extension of the contract.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Gunshow... a Yang for your ying.

And another way to see it...

1. The TA will be ratified. I think so too.

2. RTS will not voluntarily merge NJI pilots into the 1108 CBA in the near term (the only way to meet the 85% threshold is for NJI to be part of 1108). RTS has a specified time to complete the transfer, merge, copulation, hump-hump procedure-whatever you wanna call it. I prefer to call it a homecoming.

3. 1108 will file the single-carrier petition in November of next year (for which a decision won't be reached until '09-'10 timeframe). Yes we will file. A decision... will be "quick". They have a specified time to comply with the 85% IRM language.

4. If 1108 wins, RTS will meet the other specifications required before the deadline and automatically extend the agreement 30 months. 1108 case meets 30 of the 36 single carrier requirments to be considered as such. Now I know that anything can and does happen when a judge/arbitrator gets involved.

5. If 1108 loses, RTS has two options: A) Allow the agreement to expire in 2013 and open new negotiations or B) If it makes more economic sense, THEN voluntarily merge NJI into 1108 and extend the contract 30 months. I believe that RTS must have some idea of what he wants to get out of the deal AND what his chances are of a win/loss BEFORE he even sends lawyer 1 into the "court room". At the heart and core of this issue remains the fact that NetJets must remain a vibrant, profitable force in the Frax market. Make whatever case you wish about being "more profitable" separate from the NJA unit but 2 sets of everything CAN'T be as profitable as 1. 2 HQs, 2 sets of admin, 2 sets of... everything.

If RTS renigs on the deal and pulls a Gateway Snaff Part Deux like he did with the NJA pilots in 2000 there will be NO extension of the CBA and this company will be forced with the lovely prospect of Section 6 Part Deux: The Return of the Frown. I think that the company and Union have PROVEN beyond a shadow of a doubt that the IBB process is a better way to bargain for both sides (in house) than by using Section 6 (hanging our ass out the window for the Owners to see).

Not only do I believe that RTS will comply with the 85% IRM language, if interest rates continue to remain favorable through the years approaching 2016, we will see continued bargaining years short of the 2016 amendable date. Why? It's better for the business, easier to sell shares to Owners knowing that the pilots are HAPPY and UNDER CONTRACT for X more years (5+ being the magic number for Owner piece of mind).

If he would fail to comply with the 85% IRM language, I don't think that any amount of talking, memos, threats, acusations or excuses could stop the human reaction to being lied to. NJA pilots would once again find their frowns again. Frowns are proven NOT to be good for business. We can make more money as a cohesive, happy unit. NJA pilots have proven that in the years since the CBA as evident in the company profits recorded since (record profits).

This is about business. We have made a tentative agreement with management in regards to IRMs. We don't care if it involves NJI or a whole new fleet of 7Xs. SOMETHING must fill the 85% requirement though. Given the choice of a fleet of 7Xs with no NJI pilots to merge, ok... I'll do that. Or take the G4/5 with 3-400 pilots to merge in a way that reflects our date of hire... ok. Fair too. I take a 200 number "hit" personally but I take it knowing it's for the greater good.

 

[RNObased]

1. The TA will be ratified.
2. RTS will not voluntarily merge NJI pilots into the 1108 CBA in the near term (the only way to meet the 85% threshold is for NJI to be part of 1108).
3. 1108 will file the single-carrier petition in November of next year (for which a decision won't be reached until '09-'10 timeframe).
4. If 1108 wins, RTS will meet the other specifications required before the deadline and automatically extend the agreement 30 months.
5. If 1108 loses, RTS has two options: A) Allow the agreement to expire in 2013 and open new negotiations or B) If it makes more economic sense, THEN voluntarily merge NJI into 1108 and extend the contract 30 months.

No matter what, RTS has gained a minimum of 3 years operating NJI at a multi-million dollar cost savings versus adding 300+ pilots to the CBA (overtime, per diem, sick leave, etc.).

Overall, I think the TA is a win for 1108 but the 85% international agreement will actually delay resolution of the merger issue and will likely prevent the automatic 30 month extension of the contract.

GSD,

Do you actually think that RTS wants to go to court?? Maybe this is a way to avoid it and still save some face.

Plus going to court is costly and time consuming, and he has other things on his mind. Like heading up BH. I don't believe he is going to keep NJI seperate forever, just doens't make much sense. That being said I have seen them do some stupid things.

 

[blueridge71]

Not having an APU is an issue about 6 days a year. ...I can sweat a few days a year... or at least my FO can in order to get a better schedule or vacation. ....

Being a captain inside waiting on passengers and not in the cockpit getting a clearance while some other joker hogs the GPU makes a whale of a difference in 100 degree temperatures. It's closer three or four months that the cockpit of a Bravo is almost unbearable. Longer if you are in Florida.

 

[Humphreybogart]

This is not really the appropriate venue to discuss this topic.

Many of the negatives are only perceived until they are properly explained and understood. I had several negatives until I picked up a phone and called an MEC member and things were explained to my satisfaction.

Are there some negatives....sure. Let's talk about them on the secure Union board. That's where the decisions to vote "YES" or "NO" will be made.

The rest of the world will have to wait until Nov 20th

Hey DO DO, you have no problem discussing other things here on flightinfo, why be so secretive? No matter what NJ does, you'll never have it as good as we do at CitaionShares, and everything we have obtained is WITHOUT a union, Kid.

 

[johnsonrod]

Hey DO DO, you have no problem discussing other things here on flightinfo, why be so secretive? No matter what NJ does, you'll never have it as good as we do at CitaionShares, and everything we have obtained is WITHOUT a union, Kid.

No way CS would offer less than any new NJA contract for fear of losing those "best" pilots in the business (especially the newhires who don't have a real reason to stay), Grandpa.

I highly doubt CS would be so proactive in terms of industry-leading salaries without NJA's prompting. It's all about attracting qualified pilots in a tight labor market (people who meet the minimums) - especially with the majors hiring. Watch those training classes dry up at CS if it does not match NJA's new contract. You'll have the Teamsters to thank for that raise.

 

[captain dad]

Hey DO DO, you have no problem discussing other things here on flightinfo, why be so secretive? No matter what NJ does, you'll never have it as good as we do at CitaionShares, and everything we have obtained is WITHOUT a union, Kid.

No disrespect, but are you HIGH?

 

[RP170]

you'll never have it as good as we do at CitaionShares

That has to be a joke or flame.

 

[Buddro]

Hey DO DO, you have no problem discussing other things here on flightinfo, why be so secretive? No matter what NJ does, you'll never have it as good as we do at CitaionShares, and everything we have obtained is WITHOUT a union, Kid.

HEY Kid,

If CS is so good, then let's see if they EVEN come close to matching the NJA IBB TA payscales.

My bet it they won't come close...

But in other news...

I'm hearing some rumors of NJA buying CS....if so it will be nice to have you as a FO....of course after the staple.

 

[x402]

Hey DO DO, you have no problem discussing other things here on flightinfo, why be so secretive? No matter what NJ does, you'll never have it as good as we do at CitaionShares, and everything we have obtained is WITHOUT a union, Kid.

Do you really think people are buying this tired old company line? Even though CS matched our raise in 2005 did you get the 40k bonus? Your 401k is a little short, merit advancement? 20k training contract? CA and IOE $$$ are also just a little short.
But go on telling yourself how good things are, just don't forget to thank the other gold ties if you get another raise after IBB passes.

 

[RNObased]

Well you guys took the bait and the used condom, Bogart de-railed another thread with his dribble.

 

[Grizz]

The 39 month equipment lock wasn't really an issue for most pilots at NetJets. The average time between changing aircraft is over 48 months.

 

[G4dude]

In order to have the right to automatically extend the CBA an additional 30 months in 2012, the company must add 10 crew bases (no biggie), adjust all wage scales according to the Consumer Price Index (a theoretical wash since owner management fees will do the same), offer health benefits equal or greater to existing (potential problem because of dramatic increases in the cost of health care in the U.S.), and the biggie: at least 85% of international flying done by 1108 seniority list pilots.

After re-reading the section and carefully considering the situation, I think it may play out as follows:

1. The TA will be ratified.
2. RTS will not voluntarily merge NJI pilots into the 1108 CBA in the near term (the only way to meet the 85% threshold is for NJI to be part of 1108).
3. 1108 will file the single-carrier petition in November of next year (for which a decision won't be reached until '09-'10 timeframe).
4. If 1108 wins, RTS will meet the other specifications required before the deadline and automatically extend the agreement 30 months.
5. If 1108 loses, RTS has two options: A) Allow the agreement to expire in 2013 and open new negotiations or B) If it makes more economic sense, THEN voluntarily merge NJI into 1108 and extend the contract 30 months.

No matter what, RTS has gained a minimum of 3 years operating NJI at a multi-million dollar cost savings versus adding 300+ pilots to the CBA (overtime, per diem, sick leave, etc.).

Overall, I think the TA is a win for 1108 but the 85% international agreement will actually delay resolution of the merger issue and will likely prevent the automatic 30 month extension of the contract.

I agree!

 

[acaTerry]

Being a captain inside waiting on passengers and not in the cockpit getting a clearance while some other joker hogs the GPU makes a whale of a difference in 100 degree temperatures. It's closer three or four months that the cockpit of a Bravo is almost unbearable. Longer if you are in Florida.

Oh so you think the world should cry for you? You ever been a CA? He's not just sitting there with nothing to do. And don't forget that the CA was in your place once too.
Been in an APU-less plane for my 3rd year now, by choice. It could be a lot worse. Besides, I never had a CA who hasn't asked me what they could do to help.

 

[Fozzy]

For those of you who haven't flown without an APU, you are really overrating the whole issue. Like any situation, you learn to adapt and find ways to minimize your discomfort... window shades, gpus, hangars... etc. I flew the Ultra for six years. Not having an APU is an issue about 6 days a year. I actually enjoyed the fact that we might be on ramp somewhere where we didn't need to wear earplugs. Silence is golden! I made the move to an aircraft with an apu because I wanted a new challenge.... I don't believe mastering the apu was part of that challenge. Additionally, the trips that we made in the Ultra were fun. We went to a lot of out of the way places... quite often we were the only jet on the ramp. Often I feel that having an APU somehow makes someone feel like 'an airline pilot', kinda like wearing a hat or living in their parents basement, rather than just a little more comfortable during extreme temperatures. I'd have no problem going back to a non-apu aircraft if it meant a better QOL. I can sweat a few days a year... or at least my FO can in order to get a better schedule or vacation. I doubt that I will, but the APU wouldn't be a factor. So, upgrading in an ultra, encore, bbj, etc. is an UPGRADE. You are a captain, getting paid on the captain scale. It is not a sentence. If, 39 months later, you wish to and can TRANSITION to another aircraft, then do so. Enjoy the journey and cash the checks... stop whinning about.... oh, just stop whinning....

Must admit, I read this and hit the post button without reading forward.
Marq, SPEAK FOR YOURSELF. I was in the Uboat for 5 years. Before that I worked in a non apu aircraft for 4+ years. It is a big deal. I will sacrifice QOL before going back. Sorry, just because you don't mind sweating like a pig, freezing you as,s off, smashing 15 bags into an area that fits 5 bags, and a lav that is not an external, fine. But I bet you speak for the majority!

I love APU noise. Fire that thing up and burn some dinosaurs!

 

[yosemite]

Ahhh Ribbit... luv ya man.

A couple notes:

And another way to see it...

4. If 1108 wins, RTS will meet the other specifications required before the deadline and automatically extend the agreement 30 months. 1108 case meets 30 of the 36 single carrier requirments to be considered as such. Now I know that anything can and does happen when a judge/arbitrator gets involved.

Actually, it will be more by that point. Some things we can't talk about.

and...

This is about business. We have made a tentative agreement with management in regards to IRMs. We don't care if it involves NJI or a whole new fleet of 7Xs. SOMETHING must fill the 85% requirement though. Given the choice of a fleet of 7Xs with no NJI pilots to merge, ok... I'll do that. Or take the G4/5 with 3-400 pilots to merge in a way that reflects our date of hire... ok. Fair too. I take a 200 number "hit" personally but I take it knowing it's for the greater good.

Think about the logistics of this.... in order to affect the option, the language says NJA must operate 85% of the IRMs "in the twelve months prior...". My question, and answer is 'how many aircraft does it take?'.... What I'm being told: at least 40 more.

40 more aircraft in 4 years? Anyone listen to the last hangar video where RTS talks about the problems with acquiring the 7X? Can't get them... not available. Nor are extra G-whiz's...

Short answer my froggy friend is that the timeline is defined. It is a done deal; we simply need to go through the steps.

See ya somewhere...

 

[Flyingdog1]

RNO, good point. Something "bad" to you guys might not necessarily appear bad to us. It's all relative I suppose. Bottom line here is they should give us a raise based on the last 2 great years we've had. I wonder what would happen if you guys vote "no" and then we get a raise that surpasses NJ?? Might create some tension over there.

If you wanna make more money than NJ,here at Flex, you might want to sell some of that crack you're smok'n.