The logic of relative seniority

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Ty, 30 pct on a 17 year old list is not the same as 30 pct on a 41 year old list.

The older the list, the slower the climb. You still have dues to pay brother.

 

[TWA Dude]

Seniority is about time in service. Period.

Oh really? Then how do you explain the fact that when pilots are furloughed your seniority gets worse instead of better?

Seniority for pilots is nothing other than how many pilots are above and below you. What you describe is called longevity. Why it's so hard for some to differentiate the two is beyond me.

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty, 30 pct on a 17 year old list is not the same as 30 pct on a 41 year old list.

The older the list, the slower the climb. You still have dues to pay brother.

That logic works both ways, Hose.

So then, an FO at 58% on a list with flat growth doesn't mean the same as 58% on a list with rapid growth coming (AAI airframe orders = 37% growth by 2016).

 

[Cometman]

That logic works both ways, Hose.

So then, an FO at 58% on a list with flat growth doesn't mean the same as 58% on a list with rapid growth coming (AAI airframe orders = 37% growth by 2016).

You missed the whole point he was making. You really should stop while you were ahead. Every time you and Lear70 open your mouth you convince everybody you are --------. I am only in the eleventh grade and I can see through you. Good luck, you must think everybody is buying your stupid quotes.

 

[Dash Power]

Oh really? Then how do you explain the fact that when pilots are furloughed your seniority gets worse instead of better?

Seniority for pilots is nothing other than how many pilots are above and below you. What you describe is called longevity. Why it's so hard for some to differentiate the two is beyond me.

No problem understanding this remarkably obvious point about seniority. My number is what drives my quality of life. And my number represents in the list how long I have earned that position. No matter if it is 3 months or 30 years. How many above me and below me is what gives me the power of my seniority number. Someone on the list I serve who has been here 7 years less than I but has a seniority number above me has more power for less time served. Which is absolutely unfair in this integration.

I really do not care about other seniority mergers or integrations, just this one.

 

[ackattacker]

I really do not care about other seniority mergers or integrations, just this one.

In this merger DOH is a windfall for SW pilots and relative seniority is a windfall for Airtran.

HOWEVER

Relative Seniority does not hurt the career expectations of a SW Pilot but DOH does hurt the career expectations of an Airtran pilot. Thus from my perspective, given those as the the only two choices, Relative Seniority is the *more fair* choice since I cannot get onboard with the idea of advancing one's own career at the expense of another.

 

[Lear70]

You missed the whole point he was making. You really should stop while you were ahead. Every time you and Lear70 open your mouth you convince everybody you are --------. I am only in the eleventh grade and I can see through you. Good luck, you must think everybody is buying your stupid quotes.

Really... and here I thought (and have been told by pilots from both sides via PM) that I was being pretty reasonable in simply saying that it should be fair, that a staple simply isn't going to be a tenable solution, and that no Captain should lose their seat.

And people wonder why more AirTran pilots aren't speaking out on here on this issue (and there are plenty lurking who used to post regularly) when they see what happens to those of us who do, even if our message is one of letting our respective Merger Committees find a MIDDLE GROUND SOLUTION (which is what I've advocated since day 1).

Under the circumstances, I'm not surprised the board is so devoid of our regular AAI posters these days, not because they agree or disagree with you, me, or any other poster on here, but simply because it's not worth the angst.

We're just going to let the MC's and, if necessary, the arbitrators work it out and move on. Best of luck, and smooth skies to you.

Regards,

 

[doh]

Good post. This is exactly how it should be done.

Ask any NWA, AAA pilot and they feel the same. The funny thing is that if it goes relative, the pilots with less time will get their DOH and the others get slotted in. It is a win win for the group with less years put in when relative is used. They still get DOH and get put ahead of pilots with more time invested. That is why one group will totally like that outcome. (Delta or AWA).

Putting workers with less time ahead is huge factor why we have all these discussions. Try using a relative method with some other work groups. They would not touch it, because they know how workers feel when they get put behind someone with less time.

We have AWA/AAA, CAL/United, Polar/Atlas and MEH/F9/RAH/Lynx all going no where. I guess we can add SWA/Airtran soon. All this because pilots abandoned the golden standard involved with Workgroups. DOH

M

Unless you did not have a job because you were on the street. Of course, you would exclude those people from the integration.
And of course, if you agreed to legally binding arbitration, and the arbitrator gave his ruling, which you agreed to be legally bound by, you would uphold your legal obligation to comply with that legally binding ruling. Wouldn't you?

 

[TWA Dude]

I really do not care about other seniority mergers or integrations, just this one.

You don't have to care about them but you should know that arbitrators certainly do. Every merger is different thus no single integration method can be considered fair.

 

[redflyer65]

Your right. The previous awards show these things..

1- When it's lopsided, there will be no windfall by one group.
2- QOL, pay and career expectations will be included.

In this scenerio, the absolute windfall gained by the Airtran pilots will be adjusted for with list integration. I'm guessing that 3yrs at AAI will be worth 1yr at SW. (No staple and no realitive integration)

I'm not buying that no AAI captain will lose his seat. In that scenerio a junior Airtran CA would be above a senior SW FO that's been here longer. Not sure that's gonna play out that way. Fences might help somewhat. I would say pay protection too but a junior AAI captain would get more money being a senior SW FO, along with a better schedule.

I'd easily give up a CA seat to make more money and have a better schedule.

 

[MCDU]

Unless you did not have a job because you were on the street. Of course, you would exclude those people from the integration.
And of course, if you agreed to legally binding arbitration, and the arbitrator gave his ruling, which you agreed to be legally bound by, you would uphold your legal obligation to comply with that legally binding ruling. Wouldn't you?

It is not legally binding. It was an internal ALPA proposal. Alpa needed an Arbitrator, since it can not get groups to agree on a SLI. You need to do your home work.It was a private matter within ALPA. It was a proposal that failed under ALPA. Even ALPA admits it was a proposal and they even tried to get AWA to change their minds at a meeting in WYE River since it needed both groups to agree on a joint contract that would have implemented the list.

Now, you have furloughed West pilots DOH 2005 that would go ahead of East Captains DOH 1988. The Nic was a private arbitration. The courts will decide and show who is right. Everything the West has predicted has gone wrong. You can not piss of the majority. Especially making a 2005 hire that was there for 3 weeks go ahead of former Capt who got hired in 1988. Nic was a train wreck.

M

 

[Dash Power]

In this merger DOH is a windfall for SW pilots and relative seniority is a windfall for Airtran.

HOWEVER

Relative Seniority does not hurt the career expectations of a SW Pilot but DOH does hurt the career expectations of an Airtran pilot. Thus from my perspective, given those as the the only two choices, Relative Seniority is the *more fair* choice since I cannot get onboard with the idea of advancing one's own career at the expense of another.

DOH is not a windfall for SWA pilots. A staple would be. The two windfalls are relative seniority for AT pilots and a staple for SWA pilots. Therefore somewhere in the middle is what quantitatively can be expected.

Relative seniority is not fair to the SWA pilots simply because of the investment of time.That time represents sweat equity. Even DOH is not fair to the more junior pilots of SWA because of your said career expectations.

The huge pay and QOL benefits will be considered by an arbitrator. So will the 95% strike vote. So will the higher level of job security. This is much more complicated than just relative seniority.

My educated guess is that the middle will have fences with pay and benefit considerations for which side of the fence AT pilots choose to be on. When the fence is jumped or brought down a 10 year AT pilot will be placed where a 10 year SWA pilot sits on seniority. There will be some good seat protection language with limitations and requirements.

My guess it to be good business from GK's point of view that the longer he can compensate AT pilots with AT wages and benefits, the better the bottom line. Gary can do very well with a longer time to merge certificates than to do so quickly.

It would help everyone to remember who exactly is buying whom and who will ultimately have control of these two airlines in just a few months. That whom is Gary Kelly. And Gary's responsibility is to the stockholders, not the AT pilots.

 

[Lonestar]

With that scenario, you take a pilot who was bidding in the top 10% of their F/O's seat, getting ready to upgrade in the next 6-12 months, and throw them on the BACK end of a seniority list, tell them they're not going to upgrade for a decade, if they're LUCKY, and they just lost their Quality of Life, too?

A blended use of Relative Seniority plus Date of Hire plus some kind of ratio that attempts to preserve seats, upgrade expectations, and bidding position for Quality of Life seems to be the way most of these should go to avoid angst. However, no matter what, someone's always going to be ****** off. History has certainly taught us that.

Hey Lear 70, I could swear I addressed these comments with a post Sat night but strangely I don't see it here now. Maybe I just forgot to hit post reply. Please allow me to take exception to your thinking.

The senior FO from your example will make more money, and see a huge increase in QOL, regardless of the seat he sits in. Remember, our most junior rsv line gets 15 days off, and the avg line gets 17 off. Your junior captain will get 10!

Further, every one of your FOs will be LUCKY just to be at SWA (a sentiment I hear they expressed over and over at the Roundup in ATL).

If you think that just because you expected to upgrade in x number of years before the ACQUISITION, that number must still be the case now, you will all be very dissappointed. The benefits in every aspect of your contract will more than compensate for any additional time before upgrade.

You refer to the upgrade to captain as if that, solely, is your FOs' career goal. Didn't most of your FOs leave a captain seat to come to AT for something better (Pay, benefits, QOL)? There is absolutely more to your career expectations that just getting to the left seat and the career path of nearly every AT FO proves that. I'm sure the hundreds of your pilots who tried, unsuccessfully, to get hired at SWA further prove that point.

Having AT FOs upgrading with less years of service than SWA FOs is a great example of 'A WINDFALL AT THE EXPENSE OF THE OTHER GROUP"! In fact, any SLI proposal that delays the upgrade of SWA FOs (the left seat at SWA is absolutely our expectation) for AT upgrades will be a 'WINDFALL AT THE EXPENSE OF THE OTHER GROUP'!

 

[vv100]

Hey Richard, thanks for the confirmation BTW, word is you interviewed twice at SWA.

Care to comment?

 

[RedDogC130]

Maybe at airtran they have is written somewhere, because here at swa it is not. Where does it say you will upgrade at a certain point like in 6-12 months? Nothing is a guarantee...things change, economies crash...age 65 passes, which can delay upgrades...hell when I got here they were at the 6-7 year upgrade which went to 12-15 in the blink of an eye. So now things change at airtran...but please show me where you were garanteed your upgrade at a certain point?

 

[Lear70]

Hey Lear 70, I could swear I addressed these comments with a post Sat night but strangely I don't see it here now. Maybe I just forgot to hit post reply.

You didn't reply on this thread. No posts Saturday night from 1607 until I posted at 2337, nothing deleted, either.

I've already spoken about some things I would find unfair (staple) and letting our MC find a fair MIDDLE GROUND, and as our MC has asked us not to comment, that's really all I'm going to say on the matter.

Hey Richard, thanks for the confirmation BTW, word is you interviewed twice at SWA.

Care to comment?

I already did in another thread last month. Sorry you missed it, it's still there if you'd like to do the research. Unlike most people on this forum, I don't hide behind the anonymity of a keyboard and screen name. My real name has been out there on this forum for years...

Southwest is a great company, I've never been hostile about being turned down because of one, erroneous bad reference on the background check (which I fixed before I interviewed at AirTran and which means, yes, I passed the Southwest interview and all my references were contacted). The interview experience was probably the most pleasant of my career, great people, I have nothing negative to say whatsoever.

AirTran has been able to be VERY choosy in their pilots for the last decade. Lots of new deliveries, explosive growth, and no real pilot hiring at other carriers has let us pick and choose people with spotless records, extensive 121 PIC time, and great personalities. Pilots here tend to go above and beyond to try to get the job done, recent contract issues notwithstanding, and I believe, as others have mentioned, that our cultures are more closely aligned than most people give it credit for.

Southwest pilots have every right to be proud of their company, and as I've said before, I want to make sure that culture is maintained as I believe it's the most important ingredient in Southwest's success. I sincerely hope that whatever SLI solution is found, while not everyone will be happy, that we can all move forward POSITIVELY and GROW the combined airlines into a great future.

Moderator hat on:

If you want to ask someone, me included, PERSONAL questions, you are free to send a PM. Otherwise, please don't hijack the thread.

/mod

 

[Lonestar]

I've already spoken about some things I would find unfair (staple) and letting our MC find a fair MIDDLE GROUND, and as our MC has asked us not to comment, that's really all I'm going to say on the matter.
/mod

Lear, you wrote three or four paragraphs on why DOH wouldn't be fair, yet when I respond to the windfall your group would receive in your scenario, you respond by saying you're respecting your MECs request to refrain from comments? Really?

 

[Lonestar]

AirTran has been able to be VERY choosy in their pilots for the last decade. Lots of new deliveries, explosive growth, and no real pilot hiring at other carriers has let us pick and choose people with spotless records, extensive 121 PIC time, and great personalities. Pilots here tend to go above and beyond to try to get the job done, recent contract issues notwithstanding, and I believe, as others have mentioned, that our cultures are more closely aligned than most people give it credit for.
/mod

I won't argue that your pilots hired in the last 5 or more years have had the qualifications to get hired at any airline, but there are several hundred in your ranks who tried, unsuccessfully, to come to SWA. SWA hires about one out of every four or five interviewed, and each has the qualifications. There's more to it than just PIC time.

On another note, regarding your pilots who tend to go above and beyond to try to get the job done, does that include the those who use their free time while on medical leave to do car work in the driveway?

 

[waveflyer]

It's a strange integration- relative seniority wouldn't be fair to our senior captains- not even close- DOH wouldnt be fair to the junior WN fo's

I see DOH with a ratio down from A mid 1990's hire that leaves about 500 AT Fo's below CJ.

IMHO with the contractual and cultural gains- this is pretty fair and livable- litmus test?
There'd be pilots pissed about it- but both sides would vote it in

 

[say again]

I won't argue that your pilots hired in the last 5 or more years have had the qualifications to get hired at any airline, but there are several hundred in your ranks who tried, unsuccessfully, to come to SWA. SWA hires about one out of every four or five interviewed, and each has the qualifications. There's more to it than just PIC time.
/QUOTE]

Are you saying that people who were rejected by SWA are inferior to those that were hired?

 

[waveflyer]

No- though not paramount- Swa has been the better, more sought after job for the entire time AT has existed there are plenty would would leave AT for Swa - not many who'd leave Swa for AT- if ANY- I don't like pissing contests- but expectations ought to be adjusted bc of this-
And life is good-It'll be some hybrid of DOH and relative seniority- and we should all let the process play out

 

[27 driver]

If pay rates don't matter, then why didn't AAI pilots agree to a contract several years ago?

I'd guess the fact that Airtran was subsidizing growth with lower payrates for the past several years with lower pay rates. That's reason number one that SWA pilots won't be happy with relative seniority. We bargained for a solid contract ten years ago while AAI pilots continued at basement wages--which allowed AAI to grow at a fast pace.

Having the AAI pilots trade their accecptance of substandard wages for increased seniority after the merger sets a bad precedent. Instead of bargaining for a good contracts, pilots will start negotiating for a contract that will put themselves in a good position after a merger.

AAI pilots tried to get a better contract. Management used the RLA to their advantage to stall the process. And to be correct according to the swapaluv website, LUV didn't climb to the top until 2004 when all the legacies got their concessionary contracts. I am truly happy for you guys that you don't have draconian management like the Lorenzo types we have at the Tran. And I am not sure I understand you last point. Aren't they one in the same. Any contract that puts you in a better place for a merger would put you in a better place period.

 

[jonjuan]

I see

There's your mistake.

 

[jonjuan]

SWA hired about one out of every four or five interviewed since 2003

However, they hired five out of every four from 1973 to 2002.

 

[waveflyer]

However, they hired five out of every four from 1973 to 2002.

No- it was easier- but never easy

 

[Dash Power]

No- it was easier- but never easy

Bullsheet. In 1994 they hired one is six. In 2002 they hired one in eight.

Since the mid-eighties it has been more difficult to get a job with SWA than any other carrier. The minimum hiring requirements have always been much higher than the other majors. Most hired with majors since the eighties didn't meet the minimum requirements. In my class they averaged the total time at around 4500 hours with 2300 turbine.

Those are the facts.

 

[Angus]

It's a strange integration- relative seniority wouldn't be fair to our senior captains- not even close- DOH wouldnt be fair to the junior WN fo's

I see DOH with a ratio down from A mid 1990's hire that leaves about 500 AT Fo's below CJ.

IMHO with the contractual and cultural gains- this is pretty fair and livable- litmus test?
There'd be pilots pissed about it- but both sides would vote it in

And what I see is a Line Pilot that has decided to ignore the request of his Union Merger Committee, and pretend to have it ALL figured out.

I seriously doubt that ANYTHING said on this playground would have an effect on an SLI... but at least myself and 99.999% of the rest of the AirTran Pilots have decided to throw the Merger Committee a bone and abide by their request.

Why are you such in need of being the center of attention or simply being an internet blowhard... that you can't just STFU?

You aren't the ambassador that you think you are in speaking for YOUR expectations or realizations of what a SLI will look like.... you are simply the loggerhead that people on the Merger Committee have to address.

 

[PCL_128]

On another note, regarding your pilots who tend to go above and beyond to try to get the job done, does that include the those who use their free time while on medical leave to do car work in the driveway?

The real irony in your question is that he only got injured and was on OJI leave because he was going above and beyond and hurt himself climbing into a cargo compartment and doing everything he could to free a stroller that was wedged under a pile of bags to help out a disabled passenger.

Yeah, he's a real slacker.

 

[Angus]

Bullsheet. In 1994 they hired one is six. In 2002 they hired one in eight.

Since the mid-eighties it has been more difficult to get a job with SWA than any other carrier. The minimum hiring requirements have always been much higher than the other majors. Most hired with majors since the eighties didn't meet the minimum requirements. In my class they averaged the total time at around 4500 hours with 2300 turbine.

Those are the facts.

REALLY?!?! Wow... YOU and your classmates and your airline are the best and coolest on the whole playground.... err... I mean in the WHOLE WORLD.

Pilots arguing about who are the "bestest" = priceless. About as priceless as watching toddlers at daycare fight over a toy. With the SAME results I might add....

Carry on little Kiddies... you are all so cute at this age....

 

[Dash Power]

REALLY?!?! Wow... YOU and your classmates and your airline are the best and coolest on the whole playground.... err... I mean in the WHOLE WORLD.

Pilots arguing about who are the "bestest" = priceless. About as priceless as watching toddlers at daycare fight over a toy. With the SAME results I might add....

Carry on little Kiddies... you are all so cute at this age....

Does anyone else see the irony with this post?