The logic of relative seniority

[Scope out RJ's]

This thread is dead- much like my career...

There, fixed it.

 

[Lear70]

From the Forum Rules Mr Lear 70 guy:

NO SCAB LISTS or links to scab lists may be placed on these forums. No calling a member/non-member a scab. Violators will be permanently banned at first offense if or when the Websitemaster/moderators feel deemed.

You can discuss it according to the rules, just don't post a link to the list or call somebody one.

Show me your reference. The above quote I gave came from the person who manages/owns this site.

The mods also have the authority to moderate other items as they see fit, unless overridden by the webmaster.

A good example would be the limits we've placed on discussing UAir/AWA, CAL/UAL, or SWA/AAI issues in NON-related threads. It's not a website ToS, but it's a rule WE have put in place to keep things from getting out of hand, make the topics STAY on topic (as much as is possible here, which is pretty difficult), and overall make the board more enjoyable to read.

Starting a Scab discussion serves no purpose, and listing the number of scabs at AirTran, both online and/or in the training department, leads people to start asking WHO they are, since the number is so small, and we're just NOT going down that road, since calling any SPECIFIC person a Scab is not allowed.

If you don't like that decision, feel free to email the website owner. I'm not going to discuss the decision further or retract it. It's not an issue of whether I agree with their decision (my record on that issue before I became a mod speaks for itself), it's that keeping it from even being DISCUSSED is the easiest and best way to try to decide which posts go too far and which don't.

/mod

 

[St. Nic]

There, fixed it.

Back to your RJ!

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Back to your RJ!

Back to your furlough!:laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[Lonestar]

Airtran pilots finally got their golden tickets and will quickly make up for lost time (I.E. poor wages, poor QOL). No way in heck a southwest fo will be able to leapfrog an airtran captain. It'll be WWIII.

It's amazing how quickly a lottery winning attitude turns to entitlement...

"Wheah my check at?!"

 

[Whataburger]

Lear...

Why can't skabs be discussed?

 

[Ty Webb]

Why can't skabs be discussed?

That seems to be pretty uniform across the message boards. Not sure about PPRUNE, that may be the exception, since they mostly focus on foreign carriers.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

One quarter with an operating profit doesn't make VA a valid comparison. Sorry. If you were talking about Spirit or JEt Blue it would be a more valid comparison.

Nice spin Ty. VA is a privately held company and does not publish public financial reports, so their true profitability is anyone's guess. What has been made public is the fact that they plan to more than double in 18 months. Uncommon for an unprofitable company. Their upgrade is currently at 1 yearish, yours at about 5.

The differential in pay, benefits, pilot group size, years in business, and future growth plans between AAI and VA, are in similar proportion to SWA and AAI.

My analogy, albeit hypothetical, is very valid.

Now please, answer the question.

Is AAI/VA relative seniority fair and equatable?

Further spin and question dodging indicates to everyone that you do not think that it is fair, but just dont want to say as much. (For the record, I dont think relative would be fair between AAI and VA.)

 

[Lear70]

Why can't skabs be discussed?

It's long been a rule that calling someone a scab or posting a name that is on any such "list" or posting a link to the "list" is not allowed here for legal reasons.

When I started moderating, I took it a step farther and simply said "We're not starting down the road of a thread where it begins innocently enough, then people's names are being thrown out there, people are posting links to the list, etc and it takes us a day or two to get to taking it down."

It's just easier to nip any discussion about it in the bud. We all know how we all feel about it, some of us more vehemently than others. We all know there are some still at AirTran. No reason to discuss it past that, really. There's nothing stopping people from PM'ing about it, that's a private discussion, but not in public debate.

400ADude suspended (again) for 30 days for clearly violating the JUST DISCUSSED rules on discussing Scabs. I came close to banning him permanently, but it's Christmas, and I'm hoping a month to cool his heels will give him a new attitude when he comes back.

/mod

 

[Hamburger]

You're say 35% (or 65%, or 85%) up the list at the previous company and you end up 35% (or 65%, or 85%) up the list at the new company. Done.

It's not that difficult.

The 'windfall' that everyone is so obsessed about..............You received that the day you were hired by a company that was either strong enough to purchase/merge with another or a company what was attractive enough to be bought/merged with another.
It's all a roll of the dice. Both sides of a merger got lucky and neither of you are special in any way beyond you didn't put all your chips on Braniff (or Eastern, or ATA, or Aloha, or Pan Am, or TWA, etc......) Deal with it.

 

[PapaWoody]

You're say 35% (or 65%, or 85%) up the list at the previous company and you end up 35% (or 65%, or 85%) up the list at the new company. Done.

I'm sorry to be the one to break it to you, but it's just not gonna work that way. All you AAI guys that think "the law requires relative seniority" are going to be sorely disappointed. The law requires a "fair and equitable" integration, and there is nothing fair nor equitable about relative seniority in this case. This isn't a merger of equals by any stretch of the imagination. It is a stronger company with the best pilot contract in the industry buying a weaker company with the worst pilot contract in the industry (that's what YOU bring to the table). All those inequities will be taken into account, and the ISL will reflect the extreme benefit that this acquisition is to all AAI pilot's career expectations - increasing said career expectations past any point that could have reasonably been expected had AAI remained a stand-alone carrier. To think that this process and/or an arbitration panel is going to ignore the numerous benefits to the AAI pilot group is just ludicrous. To expect and demand it is just greedy.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

 

[St. Nic]

It's amazing how quickly a lottery winning attitude turns to entitlement...

"Wheah my check at?!"

Just look at the MESA/West pilots based in Phoenix! There is one unargueable fact that is uniform across all airlined: DATE OF HIRE! Southwest wouldn't have anything to worry about if they merged with USAPA because what each side brought to the merger, seniority, would be perserved.
How do you board non rev on your airplane? DOH
How do the flight attendants integrate? DOH
How do other employee groups integrate? DOH

See the pattern? When you deviate from it that's when you get the entitlement crowd (AWA and now AAI) starting to expect the moon! Give em all date of hire and the problem is solved!

 

[St. Nic]

Back to your furlough!:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Ever been on furlough? I have- twice! Wouldn't wish it on anyone!!!
Shows what a class act you are bud.

 

[Ty Webb]

Nice spin Ty. VA is a privately held company and does not publish public financial reports, so their true profitability is anyone's guess.

It's pretty obvious what their financial position is when they had several recent "capital calls" beacuse they required an infusion of large sums of money from its investors to stay afloat, and now this, the first announcement of a profitable quarter, their financial condition is very much different than AirTran, which has been profitable for 9 out of the last 10 years.

Jose, you want me to say something I disagree with. It ain't gonna happen.

 

[Max Powers]

I'm sorry to be the one to break it to you, but it's just not gonna work that way. All you AAI guys that think "the law requires relative seniority" are going to be sorely disappointed. The law requires a "fair and equitable" integration, and there is nothing fair nor equitable about relative seniority in this case. This isn't a merger of equals by any stretch of the imagination. It is a stronger company with the best pilot contract in the industry buying a weaker company with the worst pilot contract in the industry (that's what YOU bring to the table). All those inequities will be taken into account, and the ISL will reflect the extreme benefit that this acquisition is to all AAI pilot's career expectations - increasing said career expectations past any point that could have reasonably been expected had AAI remained a stand-alone carrier. To think that this process and/or an arbitration panel is going to ignore the numerous benefits to the AAI pilot group is just ludicrous. To expect and demand it is just greedy.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

You're sort of right. We aren't a merger of equals. AirTran was growing while SWA was stagnate. Career expectations are the biggest factor in the SLI. We have much faster upgrade times. AAI is now at 4 years and 6 months for 717 cpt. This will mean relative seniority will not work. You can expect many FO from AAI will be given higher than relative seniority to make up for the now slower upgrade time.

 

[Max Powers]

PS...PapaWoody is soo going to be one of those guys who will carry this grudge with him to the grave. Sorry but that is why you are so fun to mess with.

 

[Lear70]

Everyone needs to watch it with the personal attacks. They're just not allowed.

Yes, I know it's subjective to whether calling someone an idiot for their view on here differs from calling someone a "scumbag", but it's my call, and I'm making it. Be mad at me if you want, but I'm just not going to let this denigrate to that level.

/mod

 

[PapaWoody]

You're sort of right. We aren't a merger of equals. AirTran was growing while SWA was stagnate. Career expectations are the biggest factor in the SLI. We have much faster upgrade times. AAI is now at 4 years and 6 months for 717 cpt. This will mean relative seniority will not work. You can expect many FO from AAI will be given higher than relative seniority to make up for the now slower upgrade time.

LOL...you are hilarious! I almost feel bad laughing, because I was raised better than to laugh at slow kids.

PW

PS What color is the sky in your world?

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Ever been on furlough? I have- twice! Wouldn't wish it on anyone!!!
Shows what a class act you are bud.

Ever hear of binding arbitration? Obviously not, since you find yourself in the position you do. I wouldn't wish it on anyone what you did.
Back to your 190 and your mesa style pay rates, junior. (or do mesa pilots actually make more)

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Everyone needs to watch it with the personal attacks. They're just not allowed.

Yes, I know it's subjective to whether calling someone an idiot for their view on here differs from calling someone a "scumbag", but it's my call, and I'm making it. Be mad at me if you want, but I'm just not going to let this denigrate to that level.

/mod

I see that it was my post you deleted in response to st. nic. The word "scumbag," I used was the only one I thought would get past the censor, yet get my point across about pukes like him!
He continues to bring east/west diatribe with his latest response calling west pilots mesa west. So you ban 400Adude for 30 days, good on ya. Can't stand him. How about throwing the rest of us a bone and banning st. nic for for 30 days or better yet, permamently, for his continuing to bring us air east/west BS into every stinking thread?
You obviously don't have any problem banning people, myself included.
So....How about it?

 

[Max Powers]

LOL...you are hilarious! I almost feel bad laughing, because I was raised better than to laugh at slow kids.

PW

PS What color is the sky in your world?

Get over it dude some guys are going to be put in front of you. That is the new color to your sky.

 

[Flopgut]

This thread is quite a brawl..... I should stay out of it, but I'm interested to know what somebody like St. Nic thinks about longevity vs. DOH? Suppose you have a currently furloughed pilot, who got furloughed 1 year after being hired, that you have to intergrate with a pilot hired at a much later date that is not only still working but has 5 times the longevity? Or is currently furloughed with multiple more years longevity that the pilot with the earlier DOH?

 

[maru657]

Just look at the MESA/West pilots based in Phoenix! There is one unargueable fact that is uniform across all airlined: DATE OF HIRE! Southwest wouldn't have anything to worry about if they merged with USAPA because what each side brought to the merger, seniority, would be perserved.

Wow, This just requires comment. If D.O.H. were a standard anymore then Mckaskill-Bond would not have been revisited. SouthWest would have brought the Morris pilots in house D.O.H, American and Reno along with TWA, Ditto. Not saying it was ever a bad idea, just one that was ignored for so many years.

 

[St. Nic]

I see that it was my post you deleted in response to st. nic. The word "scumbag," I used was the only one I thought would get past the censor, yet get my point across about pukes like him!
He continues to bring east/west diatribe with his latest response calling west pilots mesa west. So you ban 400Adude for 30 days, good on ya. Can't stand him. How about throwing the rest of us a bone and banning st. nic for for 30 days or better yet, permamently, for his continuing to bring us air east/west BS into every stinking thread?
You obviously don't have any problem banning people, myself included.
So....How about it?

Maybe you should leave it all alone with your personel attacks! I have always supported date of hire and will never understand how a guy hired 5 months ago is justified being place above a guy hired 17 years ago!!! Insanity! Relative seniority is an oximoron

 

[Lear70]

No, I don't have a problem with suspending people who can't follow the rules, but it's not something I *LIKE* to do. I give warnings again and again, and finally only ban someone when they show deliberate intent to disregard the rules after being repeatedly warned.

I've put several people in hoc for 30 days lately, and I'm about to start giving people some longer time off, 90+ days, even a permanent ban for one person who's been suspended 4 times for varying lengths of time, if they don't knock it off.

As far as THIS thread is concerned, given that this isn't a thread about one airline or another, but rather arguing a specific issue, "Relative Seniority", allowing discussion about ANY airline's SLI is certainly fair game, including UAir/AWA, AA/TWA, UAL/CAL, or the upcoming SWA/AAI.

I'm not here to stifle free discussion, I simply attempt to keep it on track, in accordance with the ToS, and not let other threads be infiltrated by discussion that their topic isn't about when it becomes viral, like the AWA/UAir debacle did a while back. However, slinging mud at each other isn't going to be allowed, either. You can disagree to your heart's content, just don't get personal or profane. A good rule of thumb: if you wouldn't say it to someone's face in a crowded crew room, probably not a good idea to say it here.

/mod

 

[Lear70]

Maybe you should leave it all alone with your personel attacks! I have always supported date of hire and will never understand how a guy hired 5 months ago is justified being place above a guy hired 17 years ago!!! Insanity! Relative seniority is an oximoron

Moderator hat off:

Speaking in general terms, the problem I have with pure DOH is that, in a company who hasn't hired in 5 years, compared with a company who has hired constantly for the last 5 years, doubling in size, with DOH, you'd effectively staple half the seniority list to the bottom of the airline. If they're both profitable airlines, that just won't fly, no pun intended.

With that scenario, you take a pilot who was bidding in the top 10% of their F/O's seat, getting ready to upgrade in the next 6-12 months, and throw them on the BACK end of a seniority list, tell them they're not going to upgrade for a decade, if they're LUCKY, and they just lost their Quality of Life, too?

Sorry, I don't think that's fair. There HAS to be some middle ground. Every scenario is going to be different. To tell everyone that "Relative Seniority is the only way to go because it's the only thing that's fair" is certainly NOT going to fit some scenarios, just as Date of Hire isn't going to be fair for others.

A blended use of Relative Seniority plus Date of Hire plus some kind of ratio that attempts to preserve seats, upgrade expectations, and bidding position for Quality of Life seems to be the way most of these should go to avoid angst. However, no matter what, someone's always going to be ****** off. History has certainly taught us that.

The less preconceived expectations we have going in, the better off we'll all likely be. Just my .02 cents.

 

[Fubijaakr]

DoH is a non-starter. You have to recognize the seniority of SWA pilots who were on the property prior to the first date Air Tran/Valujet turned a wheel. Additionally, you need to recognize the seniority of the Air Tran pilots.

That's why I maintain the only fair way to integrate the seniority list is to place the SWA pilots hired prior to 1992 on the Seniority list first. Then ratio the rest of the pilots. Simple, fair, period.

 

[Cometman]

DoH is a non-starter. You have to recognize the seniority of SWA pilots who were on the property prior to the first date Air Tran/Valujet turned a wheel. Additionally, you need to recognize the seniority of the Air Tran pilots.

That's why I maintain the only fair way to integrate the seniority list is to place the SWA pilots hired prior to 1992 on the Seniority list first. Then ratio the rest of the pilots. Simple, fair, period.

Would that not be DOH then. If AAI started in 1993 then the top pilot would have a DOH of 1993. He would then start the ratio and he would be below all the SWA 1992 guys. Am I correct in that assumption?

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Maybe you should leave it all alone with your personel attacks! I have always supported date of hire and will never understand how a guy hired 5 months ago is justified being place above a guy hired 17 years ago!!! Insanity! Relative seniority is an oximoron

Insaity is not living by binding arbitration. Something the east failed to do. Insanity is thinking anything after 20 years and 2 furloughs and still only able to hold e190 f/o, making mesa type wages. Insanity is screwing over the pilots who saved your job.
Insanity is continuing to let us air operate. It should have died when America West purchased you!

 

[MCDU]

Moderator hat off:

Speaking in general terms, the problem I have with pure DOH is that, in a company who hasn't hired in 5 years, compared with a company who has hired constantly for the last 5 years, doubling in size, with DOH, you'd effectively staple half the seniority list to the bottom of the airline. If they're both profitable airlines, that just won't fly, no pun intended.

.

The reason that usually happens is when one pilot group does the work for cheaper. Stagnation happens to all airlines. The higher the pay, the more you stagnant. Low pay=lots of movement.

It is very cyclical. Just look at AMR or United or UPS. DOH is fair. It is greed that drives the notion that someone with less years deserves more. Just like D in an RJ wants USAIR to die. Pure greed so other pilots could move ahead, all the while pilots with 25 years lose their Jobs to the PFT generation. Reminds me of Republic and Midwest.

A windfall explained

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN5B9tKaB8I&NR=1

M