The logic of relative seniority

[Scope out RJ's]

This thread is dead- much like my career...

There, fixed it.

 

[Lear70]

From the Forum Rules Mr Lear 70 guy:

NO SCAB LISTS or links to scab lists may be placed on these forums. No calling a member/non-member a scab. Violators will be permanently banned at first offense if or when the Websitemaster/moderators feel deemed.

You can discuss it according to the rules, just don't post a link to the list or call somebody one.

Show me your reference. The above quote I gave came from the person who manages/owns this site.

The mods also have the authority to moderate other items as they see fit, unless overridden by the webmaster.

A good example would be the limits we've placed on discussing UAir/AWA, CAL/UAL, or SWA/AAI issues in NON-related threads. It's not a website ToS, but it's a rule WE have put in place to keep things from getting out of hand, make the topics STAY on topic (as much as is possible here, which is pretty difficult), and overall make the board more enjoyable to read.

Starting a Scab discussion serves no purpose, and listing the number of scabs at AirTran, both online and/or in the training department, leads people to start asking WHO they are, since the number is so small, and we're just NOT going down that road, since calling any SPECIFIC person a Scab is not allowed.

If you don't like that decision, feel free to email the website owner. I'm not going to discuss the decision further or retract it. It's not an issue of whether I agree with their decision (my record on that issue before I became a mod speaks for itself), it's that keeping it from even being DISCUSSED is the easiest and best way to try to decide which posts go too far and which don't.

/mod

 

[St. Nic]

There, fixed it.

Back to your RJ!

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Back to your RJ!

Back to your furlough!:laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[Lonestar]

Airtran pilots finally got their golden tickets and will quickly make up for lost time (I.E. poor wages, poor QOL). No way in heck a southwest fo will be able to leapfrog an airtran captain. It'll be WWIII.

It's amazing how quickly a lottery winning attitude turns to entitlement...

"Wheah my check at?!"

 

[Whataburger]

Lear...

Why can't skabs be discussed?

 

[Ty Webb]

Why can't skabs be discussed?

That seems to be pretty uniform across the message boards. Not sure about PPRUNE, that may be the exception, since they mostly focus on foreign carriers.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

One quarter with an operating profit doesn't make VA a valid comparison. Sorry. If you were talking about Spirit or JEt Blue it would be a more valid comparison.

Nice spin Ty. VA is a privately held company and does not publish public financial reports, so their true profitability is anyone's guess. What has been made public is the fact that they plan to more than double in 18 months. Uncommon for an unprofitable company. Their upgrade is currently at 1 yearish, yours at about 5.

The differential in pay, benefits, pilot group size, years in business, and future growth plans between AAI and VA, are in similar proportion to SWA and AAI.

My analogy, albeit hypothetical, is very valid.

Now please, answer the question.

Is AAI/VA relative seniority fair and equatable?

Further spin and question dodging indicates to everyone that you do not think that it is fair, but just dont want to say as much. (For the record, I dont think relative would be fair between AAI and VA.)

 

[Lear70]

Why can't skabs be discussed?

It's long been a rule that calling someone a scab or posting a name that is on any such "list" or posting a link to the "list" is not allowed here for legal reasons.

When I started moderating, I took it a step farther and simply said "We're not starting down the road of a thread where it begins innocently enough, then people's names are being thrown out there, people are posting links to the list, etc and it takes us a day or two to get to taking it down."

It's just easier to nip any discussion about it in the bud. We all know how we all feel about it, some of us more vehemently than others. We all know there are some still at AirTran. No reason to discuss it past that, really. There's nothing stopping people from PM'ing about it, that's a private discussion, but not in public debate.

400ADude suspended (again) for 30 days for clearly violating the JUST DISCUSSED rules on discussing Scabs. I came close to banning him permanently, but it's Christmas, and I'm hoping a month to cool his heels will give him a new attitude when he comes back.

/mod

 

[Hamburger]

You're say 35% (or 65%, or 85%) up the list at the previous company and you end up 35% (or 65%, or 85%) up the list at the new company. Done.

It's not that difficult.

The 'windfall' that everyone is so obsessed about..............You received that the day you were hired by a company that was either strong enough to purchase/merge with another or a company what was attractive enough to be bought/merged with another.
It's all a roll of the dice. Both sides of a merger got lucky and neither of you are special in any way beyond you didn't put all your chips on Braniff (or Eastern, or ATA, or Aloha, or Pan Am, or TWA, etc......) Deal with it.

 

[PapaWoody]

You're say 35% (or 65%, or 85%) up the list at the previous company and you end up 35% (or 65%, or 85%) up the list at the new company. Done.

I'm sorry to be the one to break it to you, but it's just not gonna work that way. All you AAI guys that think "the law requires relative seniority" are going to be sorely disappointed. The law requires a "fair and equitable" integration, and there is nothing fair nor equitable about relative seniority in this case. This isn't a merger of equals by any stretch of the imagination. It is a stronger company with the best pilot contract in the industry buying a weaker company with the worst pilot contract in the industry (that's what YOU bring to the table). All those inequities will be taken into account, and the ISL will reflect the extreme benefit that this acquisition is to all AAI pilot's career expectations - increasing said career expectations past any point that could have reasonably been expected had AAI remained a stand-alone carrier. To think that this process and/or an arbitration panel is going to ignore the numerous benefits to the AAI pilot group is just ludicrous. To expect and demand it is just greedy.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

 

[St. Nic]

It's amazing how quickly a lottery winning attitude turns to entitlement...

"Wheah my check at?!"

Just look at the MESA/West pilots based in Phoenix! There is one unargueable fact that is uniform across all airlined: DATE OF HIRE! Southwest wouldn't have anything to worry about if they merged with USAPA because what each side brought to the merger, seniority, would be perserved.
How do you board non rev on your airplane? DOH
How do the flight attendants integrate? DOH
How do other employee groups integrate? DOH

See the pattern? When you deviate from it that's when you get the entitlement crowd (AWA and now AAI) starting to expect the moon! Give em all date of hire and the problem is solved!

 

[St. Nic]

Back to your furlough!:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Ever been on furlough? I have- twice! Wouldn't wish it on anyone!!!
Shows what a class act you are bud.

 

[Ty Webb]

Nice spin Ty. VA is a privately held company and does not publish public financial reports, so their true profitability is anyone's guess.

It's pretty obvious what their financial position is when they had several recent "capital calls" beacuse they required an infusion of large sums of money from its investors to stay afloat, and now this, the first announcement of a profitable quarter, their financial condition is very much different than AirTran, which has been profitable for 9 out of the last 10 years.

Jose, you want me to say something I disagree with. It ain't gonna happen.

 

[Max Powers]

I'm sorry to be the one to break it to you, but it's just not gonna work that way. All you AAI guys that think "the law requires relative seniority" are going to be sorely disappointed. The law requires a "fair and equitable" integration, and there is nothing fair nor equitable about relative seniority in this case. This isn't a merger of equals by any stretch of the imagination. It is a stronger company with the best pilot contract in the industry buying a weaker company with the worst pilot contract in the industry (that's what YOU bring to the table). All those inequities will be taken into account, and the ISL will reflect the extreme benefit that this acquisition is to all AAI pilot's career expectations - increasing said career expectations past any point that could have reasonably been expected had AAI remained a stand-alone carrier. To think that this process and/or an arbitration panel is going to ignore the numerous benefits to the AAI pilot group is just ludicrous. To expect and demand it is just greedy.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

You're sort of right. We aren't a merger of equals. AirTran was growing while SWA was stagnate. Career expectations are the biggest factor in the SLI. We have much faster upgrade times. AAI is now at 4 years and 6 months for 717 cpt. This will mean relative seniority will not work. You can expect many FO from AAI will be given higher than relative seniority to make up for the now slower upgrade time.