The logic of relative seniority

[ivauir]

Nope-not even close to being equal (equipment, profit, etc).

Opps,

How did THAT slip in there?

 

[jonjuan]

Opps,

How did THAT slip in there?

Yep-AAI has been posting profits for a while as has DL, WN, but not VX (whoops, one of the things is not like the other.) Next!

 

[Lear70]

Note to moderators and webmaster....charging people then kicking then off is close to ripping them off. Are you willing to give me a refund if I want leave?

Cometman isn't permanently banned, he's just in time out for not being able to understand the idea of personal attacks not being allowed.

 

[Fubijaakr]

I think your logic train derailed. Why do you think DOH matters pre 1992 (which is the wrong date I think anyway) but not post 1992? It seems that you think it has to do with when AAi began in its current form. Why does that matter? If you think relative is "the only fair way" why do you carve out some section of the seniority list?

Actually, you're right. The real date is October 26, 1993. That's the first day Valujet turned a wheel. So, here's the logic. All SWA pilots employed BEFORE that date should be placed on the seniority list. Air Tran (Valujet) didn't exist prior to that date, so to place any AAI pilot on the list prior to an SWA pilot employed before that date is a seniority windfall.

Then you take the remaining pilots, determine the ratio between remaining SWA pilots and AAI pilots and ratio them together.

That's the ONLY way to avoid seniority windfalls.

So if Delta bought Virgin America then all the Virgin guys would keep their seat?

Of course. That's what no bump/no flush is all about. The Virgin guys would keep their seats until they voluntarily bid out of their base. No Delta pilot would be allowed to bid into a Virgin base unless there was an opening created by either a proffer or expansion of that base.

The same applies to SWA and Atlanta. Unless the AAI guys bid out, SWA pilots would be unable to bid that base unless there was expansion, retirements or proffers due to AAI guys bidding out.

God, this is all so simple if you take out the greed and envy. Of course, not being either an SWA or AAI pilot I don't have a dog in the fight.

But then neither does an arbitrator.

 

[St. Nic]

Actually, you're right. The real date is October 26, 1993. That's the first day Valujet turned a wheel. So, here's the logic. All SWA pilots employed BEFORE that date should be placed on the seniority list. Air Tran (Valujet) didn't exist prior to that date, so to place any AAI pilot on the list prior to an SWA pilot employed before that date is a seniority windfall.

God, this is all so simple if you take out the greed and envy. Of course, not being either an SWA or AAI pilot I don't have a dog in the fight.

You sir just explained the merits of DOH- Congratulations!!!
Now only if the xBox generation would get it too, problems solved!

 

[orangebellyav8r]

Very well said. If only those guys would figure that out. They can have ATL and we get 5977 to 1 ratio.

 

[Ty Webb]

This message is hidden because orangebellyav8r is on your ignore list.

Schweet!

 

[PCL_128]

Actually, you're right. The real date is October 26, 1993. That's the first day Valujet turned a wheel. So, here's the logic. All SWA pilots employed BEFORE that date should be placed on the seniority list. Air Tran (Valujet) didn't exist prior to that date, so to place any AAI pilot on the list prior to an SWA pilot employed before that date is a seniority windfall.

Then you take the remaining pilots, determine the ratio between remaining SWA pilots and AAI pilots and ratio them together.

That's the ONLY way to avoid seniority windfalls.

Seniority is not the same thing as longevity.

 

[waveflyer]

Fuj- the most junior AT guy was hired in apr 08- Swa- = oct08
Are you ok with every AT FO ending up senior to CJ?

 

[jonjuan]

Fuj- the most junior AT guy was hired in apr 08- Swa- = oct08
Are you ok with every AT FO ending up senior to CJ?

Conversely, are you OK with every sw fo senior to the last guy at at?

 

[CaptAntoineMack]

Seniority is not the same thing as longevity.

You seem to think no one on here knows that so you repeat this mantra over and over and over again.

And so then to follow is that longevity is not the same thing as seat position. So then therefore seat position is not the same thing as seniority or longevity. So then therefore the AT seat position is not the same as seniority or longevity.

SWA payrates are determined with longevity and seat position. AT pay rates are determined with longevity and seat position. So therefore equal pay is determined with both companies is determined with longevity and seat rates. So an AT Captain will earn the same as an SWA FO so therefore "Fair and Equitable" will integrate AT Captains at SWA FO rates. Then when the former AT pilots upgrade they will still have greater career expectations than the average SWA pilot. To this my vote will be in the affirmative.

I am just saying.......

 

[Max Powers]

Actually, you're right. The real date is October 26, 1993. That's the first day Valujet turned a wheel. So, here's the logic. All SWA pilots employed BEFORE that date should be placed on the seniority list. Air Tran (Valujet) didn't exist prior to that date, so to place any AAI pilot on the list prior to an SWA pilot employed before that date is a seniority windfall.

God, this is all so simple if you take out the greed and envy. Of course, not being either an SWA or AAI pilot I don't have a dog in the fight.

But then neither does an arbitrator.

Really? Is that what you call logic???? Never going to happen.

 

[waveflyer]

Conversely, are you OK with every sw fo senior to the last guy at at?

Of course- im just saying it's not realistic to think of any scenario that doesn't end up with several hundred below CJ .... Jmo

 

[MILF Hunter]

Seniority is not the same thing as longevity.

Wow PCL, its lucky you're just a line pilot like the rest of us because if you were on the MEC, for instance, that might be construed as an SLI position. But since you're not that important, I guess it's just another pilot doing exactly what your union has asked you not to do.

 

[PCL_128]

It's just a statement of fact, not an SLI position.

 

[St. Nic]

Seniority is not the same thing as longevity.

Oh really? Hmmmm. How do you bid on equipment? How do you bid for schedules? How do you board as a non rev?

DATE OF HIRE

 

[vixin]

SWA non rev is first come first served. Unless its non employee.

 

[RedDogC130]

DATE OF HIRE

This question is for St nic only...

If USAIR buys let's say american eagle...who have some senior dudes...would you still fight for doh w a regional carrier?

 

[get2flyin]

This question is for St nic only...

If USAIR buys let's say american eagle...who have some senior dudes...would you still fight for doh w a regional carrier?

Nice! He won't have a response for that.

 

[waveflyer]

Oh really? Hmmmm. How do you bid on equipment? How do you bid for schedules? How do you board as a non rev?

DATE OF HIRE

No- if that were the case, there'd be a lot of Trump shuttle pilots bidding a bit more powerfully than they currently do in the East

 

[St. Nic]

I can answer that easily: CONDITION & RESTRICTION. Give the AE DOH and fence them off mainline equipment. If you knew anything about SLI in the past that is how it's ALWAYS been done- long before the PFT airlines showed up.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

I can answer that easily: CONDITION & RESTRICTION. Give the AE DOH and fence them off mainline equipment. If you knew anything about SLI in the past that is how it's ALWAYS been done- long before the PFT airlines showed up.

How do the pension sellout and bottom paying airlines like yours do it?

 

[get2flyin]

I can answer that easily: CONDITION & RESTRICTION. Give the AE DOH and fence them off mainline equipment. If you knew anything about SLI in the past that is how it's ALWAYS been done- long before the PFT airlines showed up.

If you are going to fence them off, then what's the point of merging them at all? And the PFT airlines comment...what a maroon! You DO know AE never was pay for training, right? I know you East guys get all gushy talking about C and R and think the West should feel honored you agreed to bestow them. The problem is your conditions and restrictions suck. Don't agree? How about this: NIC + your conditions and restrictions. If they´re so great, you should be set for life.

 

[waveflyer]

Id like st Nic to answer how many mergers in usair's own history went strict DOH -

Bottom line- if you're not going to accept binding arbitration- why did you agree to it?

And this has been my point all along- if you get online and start confusing this forum with reality/ pretending that you are the one formulating the SL- you can set very rigid expectations that may lead to turmoil in the future-

I want to see several hundred AT FOs under CJ, if not all of them- that's my opinion- I think there are good reasons for that-

What I understand however is that there are hundreds of opinions many of which vary wildly from the next and ALL have their reasoning.

What I'm committed to is that if the SL comes out and the only pilot under CJ is me(!) I will still be buying the drinks at the bar/ make peace with it and move on -

I think the future's bright as long as each person takes responsibility for their attitude. The SL is all pilots/ we need to nut up that both sides are represented and the outcome will be what it will be/

 

[MCDU]

You know what is really funny. The East has some Westies that were furloughed that came East.They went to the 190 RSV in PHL making the big bucks. With the NIC they could hold Capt on it or be a line holder on the BUS in CLT or PHL. Why these guys came over is a big ? I do know one is born in 1977. That is about 6 years younger then any orig. Eastie. I guess he figures he will be #1 with the NIC or DOH.

Anyway, all mergers at USAIR went DOH except for Trump. Trump started in 1989 and they wantd their Eastern DOH. It was Nic who did that one and it was after ALPA changed from DOH.

M

 

[Sandhawk]

Why these guys came over is a big ? I do know one is born in 1977. That is about 6 years younger then any orig. Eastie. I guess he figures he will be #1 with the NIC or DOH.

Really FCU??

How about the Grievance Granny - she was hired at 23 or 24, wasn't she?

Plenty of Eastwipes were hired in their early 20s....

Look at your Boyfriend's seniority list and do the math!

:smash:

 

[ableone]

You know what is really funny. The East has some Westies that were furloughed that came East.They went to the 190 RSV in PHL making the big bucks. With the NIC they could hold Capt on it or be a line holder on the BUS in CLT or PHL. Why these guys came over is a big ? I do know one is born in 1977. That is about 6 years younger then any orig. Eastie. I guess he figures he will be #1 with the NIC or DOH.

Anyway, all mergers at USAIR went DOH except for Trump. Trump started in 1989 and they wantd their Eastern DOH. It was Nic who did that one and it was after ALPA changed from DOH.

M

Really? Piedmont went DOH? Really? Check again.

 

[MCDU]

Really? Piedmont went DOH? Really? Check again.

Yes it did junior. I guess you were still in grade school back then.

M

 

[Jonny Sacko]

You guys are hysterical. What a disaster you've turned this career into. I hope we all learn from you.

 

[waveflyer]

I think the difference is mcdu's attitude is representative of the average line holder- most chiming in here about Wn/at are way more intense than anything I've seen online.