The Flight Options Army

[netjetwife]

The management could ...could walk into our negotiators with a contract that mirrors the industry standard pay, schedule and benefits package, and we'd have a contract in a month.

Ultimately, the owners will have the final say. The only question is who they will believe is to blame. I speak with these people everyday. I know the answer. The credibility gap from owners isn't with the pilots.

Good post, Ace! I agree that the owners see the obvious--professional pilots are taking them safely where they need to go. I hardly think they expect that service should be theirs for less than the going rate. When it comes to safety they surely don't want to take a chance that "you get what you pay for" will be what they think in the middle of a crash. Owners realize that experienced pilots will leave if they aren't compensated according to their skills. I have no doubt that they'd be shocked to know that some pilots qualify for government assistance. I'm just as sure that Flight Options isn't proudly telling owners that the pilots are underpaid/overworked. Made aware of the facts, how could they deny the justification of your contract battle?

As for management, they know that low morale and poor motivation has a ripple effect which impacts performance and growth. When they get past their arrogance and anger at having the pilots stand up to them, they'll calm down and realize that working together is in everyone's best interest. They may do so grudgingly, but if the pilots hold their ground, they'll come around.

WHEN YOU REALIZE THAT YOU CAN'T GO BACK, YOU ARE MORE COMPELLED TO MOVE FORWARD

 

[Galaxy]

Dime -- I know 6 FLoPs owners and not one is close to being happy. Each is waiting for their respective contract to be up and most have already contacted NJA. One will move to CS. Of course, this is only a very limited sample. Personally, I do not know anyone moving from NJA to FLOPS. I know some who are considering CS but that is it.

Fly safe.

You are very correct NJAOwner.. It is sad but the owners I have talked to are very upset and eager to jump ship. Some are owners on the retiring fleets and FLOPS can no longer meet thier needs so they are going elsewhere. Most however are just fed up with the lack of integrity from OSR. It is not OSR's fault though-they are just relaying info given to them by the schedulers. I do not claim to know the fix to the problems but something has to be done because operations as normal will be the end to FLOPS.
Just take a look at thier new programs:
Pilot incentives for sales
Fractional First

 

[dash_trash]

The illustrious upper management must go! They have such a stellar record; lets start with AmericaWest … Bankruptcy; USAirways Metro Jet … bye, bye. USAirways Shuttle … rolled into mainline. USAirways Express … retroactive pay cuts, etc. Oh, did I mention the 2 Bankruptcies, and the bonus taken in the first bankruptcy. While others were loosing there jobs, or taking substantial pay, benefit, and retirement hits, they got a bonus.

Now that’s leading by example!

 

[netjetwife]

When upper management is morally bankrupt no one should be surprised that the company ends up financially bankrupt. Getting a bonus for cutting costs..read that workers...just adds insult to injury. Disgusting! Just another reason unions are needed...

 

[NJAowner]

NJA buying FLOPS

Just my opinion, but I do not think NJA will ever buy FLOPS --- that is just a dream of the FLOPs employees. Since many FLOPs owners are migrating to NJA naturally (and for free), why would NJA pay for owners who are coming anyway. It does not need FLOPs' equipment, doesn't need its operations, doesn't need its support operations.

Fly safe.

 

[netjetwife]

Desperate times result in very hopeful dreams. In the light of day, one realizes that the answer is to fight for the contract that makes the job worth keeping--all on its own. Listen to your leaders Options pilots. Follow their advice. Build your $ war chest. Dig in your heels on your just demands. That's what the NJ pilots did and others in the industry (or the regionals, for that matter) can do it, too.
Best Wishes!
NJW

 

[FamilyGuy]

When upper management is morally bankrupt no one should be surprised that the company ends up financially bankrupt. Getting a bonus for cutting costs..read that workers...just adds insult to injury. Disgusting! Just another reason unions are needed...

How can you honestly try to imply that unions have the moral high ground vs corporate management?

Truth be told, there are probably equal amounts of fraud and criminal acts on both sides.

And do not make the mistake of assuming I condone giving bonuses to managment whose sole contribution is to cut heads. Sometimes that is an unfortunate necessity, but it should be part of a larger strategic vision.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Just my opinion, but I do not think NJA will ever buy FLOPS --- that is just a dream of the FLOPs employees. Since many FLOPs owners are migrating to NJA naturally (and for free), why would NJA pay for owners who are coming anyway. It does not need FLOPs' equipment, doesn't need its operations, doesn't need its support operations.

Fly safe.

Good observations.

Another reason why NetJets will probably never buy FLOPs is that they have no interest in assuming the money losing deals FLOPs has made in an effort to attract and retain owners.

 

[netjetwife]

My statement was made as a general observation on situations. No specific groups were named--by choice. It was intended to caution workers to stand up for their interests, and not just rely on the "goodness" of the company to treat them fairly. I agree that immorality can be found in any group. I firmly believe that members must police their own lest they be harmed by the actions of a corrupt few. Any organization, in this case a union, is a direct reflection of its membership. Therefore, it is only right to judge each group, management or union, on the merits of their own behavior.

 

[NJAowner]

Leverage

As I have said before, the power in negotiations comes down to leverage. In the NJA-NJA Pilots battle owners were for the most part not a player -- the pie remained the same size (or slightly smaller). In a FLOPS-FLOPS Pilot battle, both sides are fighting over an ever decreasing size of the pie and the battle is just accelerating the decrease in size. FLOPs pilots and management should not think their battle is just like the NJA battle. It i smuch, much different, and both sides will come out as losers.

Fly safe.

 

[AceCrackshot]

NJA Owner:

While I am far from the business type that you presumably are, I would make a couple of observations.

I am forced to fight for industry standard pay and benefits. My company could have forseen the impact of the NetJets contract and planned for it accordingly. I spoke personnally with middle and upper management who believed that "a contract will never happen."

Their failure to plan even a rudimentary response to the shifting tide in the industry doesn't constitute a reason for me to subsidize the richest 1/4 of 1% of Americans. If we're that poorly led, that gives me every incentive to pursue a "max pay to the last day" philosopy. That is what I'm advocating to our union leadership. If the doors are slated to close, they we might as well get our fair share.

Market share is a fluctuating thing. I haven't used a Commodore computer in awhile. If management could come up with a really good product, the market would respond. I am convinced of that. However, with Flight Options management spending dollars on worthless HR initiatives, and management creating fluffed up titles and redundant vice presidents by the day, I fail to see where cutting my meager salary or forcing me to take vacation is the answer. We're growing tail, with not as many teeth.

Again, if Raytheon wants to fight in the fractional business, then maybe we could get a industry standard contract, and work on making a lean competitive organization. The pilots are ready to fight in the marketplace. Our management isn't. They can't and so they won't. They simply aren't smart enough. The evidence for that is as clear as day.

So we become the low hanging fruit. I don't consider my management the enemy. It is a shame that they don't return the sentiment.

 

[cjdriver]

Can someone explain the motive behind forcing vacation at FLOPS, if not to make the balance sheet more attractive to a potential buyer? BTW, Good luck to all.

 

[netjetwife]

I think some of the same sentiments do apply across the industry. Posts like Ace's could have been made by a NJ pilot a year ago--easily. Pilot salaries need to be figured as a cost of doing business. They pay the fuel costs, at the market rate. The px understand there is a fixed cost expense in fuel, catering food etc that gets figured into the product price. Why should pilots get short-changed? Asking for the going rate is only fair. It shouldn't be up to pilots to absorb the financial mistakes of management. We heard all the same excuses at NJ and they didn't go under did they? What do the pilots call it? FUD ...fear..uncertainty...doubt. It is a staple of contract battles. If they can't pay the pilots a fair rate for their professional skills maybe they need to make drastic changes in how they run the company. It's time to stop balancing the budget on the backs of the pilots.

Hang in there Options Pilots!
Netjetwife

 

[flyjetspeed]

I spoke personnally with middle and upper management who believed that "a contract will never happen."

Then it is past the time to implement an "exit strategy"!

Their failure to plan even a rudimentary response to the shifting tide in the industry...

It may well be that your company has already folded their hand and the pilots will be the last to discover that.

If we're that poorly led, that gives me every incentive to pursue a "max pay to the last day" philosopy. That is what I'm advocating to our union leadership. If the doors are slated to close, they we might as well get our fair share.

Only if you are among the last to leave, don't forget to turn off the lights.

If management could come up with a really good product, the market would respond. I am convinced of that.

Again, what if your management has run dry of ideas?

Again, if Raytheon wants to fight in the fractional business, then maybe we could get a industry standard contract, and work on making a lean competitive organization. The pilots are ready to fight in the marketplace. Our management isn't. They can't and so they won't. They simply aren't smart enough. The evidence for that is as clear as day.

They do not seem to want to fight, they seem to want to flee! It looks like the end game has begun and your company is short of material and it's position on the board is poor. My condolances.

So we become the low hanging fruit. I don't consider my management the enemy. It is a shame that they don't return the sentiment.

NJA will not be picking that friut! Why pay for something, we are going to get for free? If this post comes across as unfeeling it's only because my assessment of the situation, thus far, is dismal for FO. You sound like a solid trooper and NJ would be fortunate to have you. Perhaps it's time to leave with your head held high? Just my .02

 

[Hawkered]

Is our Union going off the rails?

I don't know guys. The pilots that were complaining before the contract are still complaining now. Things have improved, but we have the same agitators on the union board, and they're the same 20 or so all of the time.

We have a new union referendum that will make the union stifling as anything management is accused of being, once it has been completely built.

Yeah, I know we're supposed to love the union. Do we really need a dues increase when they they just got one with our pay increase?

Okay, so Flight Options has a union...or does it? Who's really behind this union institution at Flight Options, or all of the strings being pulled the IBT 1108 Columbus office?

Why should I have to pay for that with a dues increase?

I voted no!

 

[Dep676]

I don't know guys. The pilots that were complaining before the contract are still complaining now. Things have improved, but we have the same agitators on the union board, and they're the same 20 or so all of the time.

We have a new union referendum that will make the union stifling as anything management is accused of being, once it has been completely built.

Yeah, I know we're supposed to love the union. Do we really need a dues increase when they they just got one with our pay increase?

Okay, so Flight Options has a union...or does it? Who's really behind this union institution at Flight Options, or all of the strings being pulled the IBT 1108 Columbus office?

Why should I have to pay for that with a dues increase?

I voted no!

I would ask you what things have improved. Nothing has improved, that is unless you call staying in Radisson's, Super 8's and other hotels of the like means getting better. The crew meal situation has gone down hill. Duty days are longer, crew rot. There has not been one improvement that has occurred since the vote.

So I would like to see your lists of improvements. I can bet that it is small and not even one word.

 

[Freedom]

Pilots are so Frigging Ignorant:

I sometimes can't believe I call myself one.

Until YOU, the Flight Options Pilot, together with YOUR BROTHERS and SISTERS, turn up the Heat on Management by grinding this place to a halt, there will be No Good Faith Negotiating by Management.

YOU want a Contract YOU can be Proud of? Go out there and convince YOUR Brothers and Sisters to get on the Team and cause Managment some Financial Pain. Its the ONLY language they understand.

Why do whinny Pilots always sit around waiting for someone else to do the Dirty Work for them. Get YOUR HANDS DIRTY, and GET IN THE FIGHT!

As one of YOUR BROTHERS, I cannot do it alone. We need YOUR HELP.

Freedom is NOT Free.

 

[GVFlyer]

I don't know guys. The pilots that were complaining before the contract are still complaining now. Things have improved, but we have the same agitators on the union board, and they're the same 20 or so all of the time.

We have a new union referendum that will make the union stifling as anything management is accused of being, once it has been completely built.

Yeah, I know we're supposed to love the union. Do we really need a dues increase when they they just got one with our pay increase?

Okay, so Flight Options has a union...or does it? Who's really behind this union institution at Flight Options, or all of the strings being pulled the IBT 1108 Columbus office?

Why should I have to pay for that with a dues increase?

I voted no!

Good, cognitive post, Hawkered.

GV

 

[netjetwife]

Obviously, Hawkered felt that it was worth repeating. But I can't help but notice the imagery of the original is now missing.

Hawk, are you in hopes that the lite version will help your post/point to stick? Even if I didn't agree with your post the first time, I still supported your right to comment on recent affairs.

 

[gunfyter]

Why should I have to pay for that with a dues increase?

I voted no!

I consider Union Dues the best dollars spent every month. And they are tax deductible!

But I think the answer to your question is that since we are a democratic organization .. if the majority vote for dues increase ... you need to pay. Thats the reason.

If the majority vote no... then you don't have to pay.

 

[netjetwife]

Asnide from the obvious.... It is more to your advantage to help others in the industry achieve the new standards, lest you risk the bar being lowered by sub-par wages and working conditions that will be used as a direct "comp" when your side returns to the bargaining table.

Let's think of it in the terms of a real estate investment--your community is taxing you to make infrastructure improvements. You plan to sell your house in a few years, and understandably, will want to get the best market price possible. So do you vote to have your street repaved or do you think the potholes will go unobserved by prospective buyers? The latter isn't too likely! It seems to me that if everyone pitches in and helps clean up the "neighborhood" property values will rise and we'll all be better off in the long run.

Going with my community theme---I have noticed that important voting issues are listed separately on the ballot in my city. Giving voters the greatest opportunity to express their wishes is the democratic thing to do. The bylaws and the dues increase are too important to the union's future to be lumped together. Both are key issues that deserve their own place on the ballot. Being supportive of one doesn't automatically guarantee the same opinion is held for the other. An all or nothing voting procedure runs the risk of disenfranchising the very voters whose permission is being sought. The pilots and their families deserve better.
NJW

 

[Hawkered]

Yeah, but I only help those who are prepared to do some of the heavy lifting themselves. The unity at Flight Options has not been well communicated nor is it sticking with any solidarity.

I am getting sick and tired of "brother" this and "fraternally" that. It's really starting to turn into 1920's pathetic commie crap! There are factions now on the union board and harassment in the work place of officers that don't tow the line.

Did they even really "negotiate", or was it a take it or leave it offer at the 11th hour anyway?

 

[netjetwife]

Had the NJ pilots not wasted so much time themselves being disorganized and apathetic, I'd give your complaint more credence Hawkered. As it is the Options pilots have just become unionized and have had a lot to learn in a short amount of time. Not being involved with the process, I defer to the NJ pilots on the Organizing Committee and accept their word that progress is being made. Hawk, you must be from the "Show Me" state... I remember you also had your doubts that SU would bring home a fair/good contract. Which brings me to your other point--

If you'll recall, the (popularly called) POSTA was voted down overwhelmingly so obviously negotiations took place... My husband and others worked in the background to support the negotiating team; judging by the number of phone calls and amount of work that I saw, it fit the definition of negotiating. I remember that night well and while I would have gone one more round (we all know I wasn't in the room so take that for the purely personal opinion that it is ) I don't agree with your assessment of the outcome.

At my house we don't throw around words like Brother, Sister, fraternally etc. We do mention pilots by name, talk about different committees, and the status and direction of the union. Some talk the talk, some walk the walk. I've been watching very closely and I know who does what. That said, Hawk, it could all be in good fun... a way to build camaraderie, if you will. It looks to me like the NJ pilots are far better off than they used to be, judging by the much less serious tone of their complaints these days.

 

[netjetwife]

....We have a new union referendum that will make the union stifling as anything management is accused of being, once it has been completely built...... Do we really need a dues increase when they they just got one with our pay increase?...I voted no!

Could you please expand on your first point? I'm not sure of your meaning.

Kudos to you, Hawk, for caring enough to participate. In spite of the bylaws passing by a wide margin, it must be noted that around 1900 pilots didn't vote. In our society when voter turn out decreases sharply leaders become concerned and look for feasible explanations. The fact that 2 key issues were lumped together is a likely culprit. It had the appearance of "pork barrel" politics, whether deliberate strategy or not. That turns voters off but was easily avoided. If pilots viewed the decision with a jaded eye and a suspicious hunch, you can't blame them. The 2 questions could have been listed separately on one ballot--no need for two mailings.

When you have more abstainers than voters it is a problem. Was it the particular issue, the ballot format, disinterest, or disapproval over the direction and/or goals of the E-board? Strong Unions move in concert. When over half of the Membership fails to step forward they are clearly sending a message that they aren't ready and/or interested in moving the direction another has chosen. It's a good thing that the Options pilots voted, too. Now the NJ side of 1108 will also be getting their own MEC. Apparently, just in time. Strong Unions research the candidates. Get your list of questions ready....

 

[Diesel]

Something to think about. There has been no public information posted about the numbers from the bylaws vote. Any numbers here have been taken from a private website and a private messageboard for IBT 1108 dues paying members.

Until there is a public announcement of the bylaw count posting the numbers here is in bad form, and/or be grounds for suspension or banning from the 1108 messageboard.

 

[TORCH67]

Just a reminder to people posting information on this message board. The following statement is on the 1108 website.

The NetJets Pilots portion of the website and message board is exclusively for the use of active union pilots flying for NetJets Aviation. By clicking on the link below I affirm that I have read the following statement and agree to be bound by it. I also agree that I will not share information posted on this website or message board with any person not authorized to see it.

Opinions and dissertations are free speech, but be careful about information that is released on public message boards.

 

[Smellycat]

bad netjetwife

Something to think about. There has been no public information posted about the numbers from the bylaws vote. Any numbers here have been taken from a private website and a private messageboard for IBT 1108 dues paying members.

Until there is a public announcement of the bylaw count posting the numbers here is in bad form.

Netjetwife needs a spankin' for leaking classified IBT1108 information!

Get-a-life! Netjetwife! Get-a-life! Netjetwife!

 

[el raton]

Come on give us more of the secret 1108 stuffff....

 

[netjethusband]

Netjetwife needs a spankin' for leaking classified IBT1108 information!

I'll take care of her.

 

[Ultra Grump]

As for the vote, I fully intended to read the proposed bylaws and vote on them. It was very difficult to make the time necessary, however, especially since every time I started reading them I was sound asleep in 5 minutes!