The Delta vote

[waveflyer]

Which is unrealistic Gen?

-900's flying at mainline, or less pay for widebody pilots to get them there.

Everyone always says that given a do-over Delta pilots wouldn't have let the 1st RJ off the property. But the current sentiment exposes that as a lie.

You didn't want airplanes on the property that could drag down the payscale and the same justification is used today.

Admit it General- DALPA caused rampant outsourcing globally, and are now not one bit willing to sacrifice a dime to begin to reel it in by making those 70 NEW -900's a mainline aircraft.

All by itself, the number of new -900's are more than enough to justify a new program- Delta pilots just don't think it's more important than money now.

Nevermind that the downward pressure on wages larger RJs being outsourced becomes the new industry standard.

Tell me general- you guys started the outsourcing mess- you've lived how it can snowball out of control- you gave it up for money, do you not feel that you owe the industry a raise or two to undo the damage??

 

[waveflyer]

If not NOW, WHEN??

Here's the number of aircraft you have in the fleet now-
70 new -900's is a good addition, no?
Eventually, as contracts expire, get all the -900's over and you're over 200 CRJ-900's, then maybe you'll have a case to get the 70's-


747-400:*****
16
777-200LR:*****
10
777:*****
8
A330-300:*****
21
A330-200:*****
11
767-400ER:*****
21
767-300ER:*****
59
767-300:*****
21
757-300:*****
16
757-200:*****
176
MD90:*****
35
MD88:*****
117
737-800:*****
73
737-700:*****
10
A320:*****
69
A319:*****
57
DC9:*****
21

 

[Yuppyguppy]

You guys will vote that new TA in just like in 1992 when COMAIR was allowed to get the 50 seaters. Repeating mistakes of the past.

 

[General Lee]

You guys will vote that new TA in just like in 1992 when COMAIR was allowed to get the 50 seaters. Repeating mistakes of the past.

Please get your stuff fixed too. You and CAL can't get it together, and that cost everyone in pattern bargaining.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[JustaNumber]

Which is unrealistic Gen?

-900's flying at mainline, or less pay for widebody pilots to get them there.

Everyone always says that given a do-over Delta pilots wouldn't have let the 1st RJ off the property. But the current sentiment exposes that as a lie.

You didn't want airplanes on the property that could drag down the payscale and the same justification is used today.

Admit it General- DALPA caused rampant outsourcing globally, and are now not one bit willing to sacrifice a dime to begin to reel it in by making those 70 NEW -900's a mainline aircraft.

Waveflyer does have a good point that is just not being acknowledged: that regional airlines are ALREADY a de facto B scale, whose very low pay subsidizes very high pay at mainline. You can't have it both ways--no B scale and high pay. Even though it seems sacrilegious to say this here, there are limitations on the economics of the industry, and Delta does have to compete for tickets. Just try competing with ____ if only all Delta RJs are flown at current mainline wages and benefits. Reality says, if you want no B scale, you have to "pay for it" with lower top-end wages.

Excuse me while I run for the bomb shelter! :bomb:

 

[tomgoodman]

Waveflyer does have a good point that is just not being acknowledged: that regional airlines are ALREADY a de facto B scale, whose very low pay subsidizes very high pay at mainline. You can't have it both ways--no B scale and high pay. Even though it seems sacrilegious to say this here, there are limitations on the economics of the industry, and Delta does have to compete for tickets. Just try competing with ____ if only all Delta RJs are flown at current mainline wages and benefits. Reality says, if you want no B scale, you have to "pay for it" with lower top-end wages.

Excuse me while I run for the bomb shelter! :bomb:

We thought we could finesse that problem by simply keeping the B-scale on a different seniority list, so those guys couldn't re-distribute the compensation at contract time. It worked for a while, but they were ALPA too, and their numbers grew, and their airplanes grew......:erm:

 

[waveflyer]

But I'll modify JustaNumber a bit-
It might take lower wages at the top in the short term, but a more unified group flying delta passengers will allow other airlines to hold the line on scope and lead to more unified pilot unions nationwide- which will lead to higher wages than can be negotiated today-

The 50's are going away- delta mgmt is offering these wages along with the outsourcing of so many -900's bc they're desperate to keep the whipsaw/divide and conquer market intact-

They know these short term wage increases are much cheaper than losing the whipsaw domestically- they also know this TAs wages won't stay for long w/ the downward pressure outsourcing creates-
with the 50's going away, the whipsaw market is severely diminished w/o adding more airframes....

Do what you want delta- bc you will-
But voting this in is really dumb in the long term.

Do you guys always have to fall for the transparent offer? They're offering it so easily for a reason

 

[Abernathy]

Waveflyer does have a good point that is just not being acknowledged: that regional airlines are ALREADY a de facto B scale, whose very low pay subsidizes very high pay at mainline. You can't have it both ways--no B scale and high pay. Even though it seems sacrilegious to say this here, there are limitations on the economics of the industry, and Delta does have to compete for tickets. Just try competing with ____ if only all Delta RJs are flown at current mainline wages and benefits. Reality says, if you want no B scale, you have to "pay for it" with lower top-end wages.

Excuse me while I run for the bomb shelter! :bomb:

There really aren't many realistic options when it comes to "taking back" 76 seat flying. The way I see it, there is only 1, and you have to ask yourself what's better:

1. 100+ brand new CRJ900s/EMB-175s flown by regional partners in exchange for 100+ 50-seaters, or

2. 100+ brand new CRJ900s/EMB-175s flown by mainline under a "B-Scale" that pays, say, 10% more than the average regional counterpart, AND the removal of 100+ 50-seaters from the regionals?


In my opinion, option 2 is the best option and the only way to get the company to consider Large RJs on mainline property is under a B-Scale that was comparable to airline rates. Work rules won't matter much anymore after the new rest rules come into play, as that will even out the playing field significantly. Furthermore, with the media focus on RJ safety lately, DL can be the first legacy to say that your flight to Moline will be flown on Delta airplanes by Delta pilots.

DALPA screwed up. Giving away that many more 76 seaters wasn't the answer. A B-Scale was.

 

[General Lee]

There really aren't many realistic options when it comes to "taking back" 76 seat flying. The way I see it, there is only 1, and you have to ask yourself what's better:

1. 100+ brand new CRJ900s/EMB-175s flown by regional partners in exchange for 100+ 50-seaters, or

2. 100+ brand new CRJ900s/EMB-175s flown by mainline under a "B-Scale" that pays, say, 10% more than the average regional counterpart, AND the removal of 100+ 50-seaters from the regionals?


In my opinion, option 2 is the best option and the only way to get the company to consider Large RJs on mainline property is under a B-Scale that was comparable to airline rates. Work rules won't matter much anymore after the new rest rules come into play, as that will even out the playing field significantly. Furthermore, with the media focus on RJ safety lately, DL can be the first legacy to say that your flight to Moline will be flown on Delta airplanes by Delta pilots.

DALPA screwed up. Giving away that many more 76 seaters wasn't the answer. A B-Scale was.

Don't the Airtran 717s go to Moline now? Won't Delta be getting 717s? Why won't they be going to Moline? Btw, it won't be 100 new 76 seaters going to DCI, rather 70, if the 717s show up. Then dump 150 50 seaters, for a net loss of 80 50 seaters total. A B-scale RJ flown by mainline is just too costly. There is no way mainline can fly cheaper than the whipsawed Regionals. If the TA passes, there will be caps on RJs, ratios to keep mainline flying more domestic than DCI, and 717s coming to hit places like Moline, with mainline payscales. 12th year Captain on the 717 starting in Jan of 2015 (2 1/2 years from now) will be $195 an hour, and it will be the smallest and lowest paying mainline jet. That is what people should be striving for.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[whymeworry?]

100% true

Not it's not. My sister's husband is a banking exec. Runs various projects. Mostly works from home out of choice. I'd estimate he puts in an actual 4 hrs a day of work. So, yes, he has to check in with his Indian counterparts from time to time and see how work is coming along, but he pulls in in $250K (plus stock options) to work from wherever he wants, whenever he wants. He actually prefers to go in to the office to get away from home distractions though.

Last year they closed down a project he was on, they gave him 6 months full pay while he looked for another position in the company. He he elected to leave at the end of 6 mo, he would've received a 9 mo severance. He basically cruised for 6 mo, then began getting serious the last 4 weeks. Found something within the company and elected to stay on.

One of my best friends pulls in $1.5 mil per year managing his clients with AIG. He rarely comes into the office before 9 am, his staff shows up at 0530. And he leaves by 13-13:30. I respect his work ethic because I watched as he built his business to run that way. He has a team of $200K per year assistants that cover the accounts when he's not in the office. The rest of the time he checks in on his upscale eateries and bars throughout the city, bikes, does yoga, travels and chases skirt. He is hardly a slave to his profession.

The point is, not every MBA or exec is tied to their job 24/7. So don't make the argument that our career is so much better than theirs.

The DAL TA is a complete joke. You guys deserve your fate if you vote that POS in.

You guys are going to vote for a TA that doesn't pay you until the aircraft is moving? On that part alone, it should be an automatic no vote for 100% of the MIGS.

 

[waveflyer]

Don't the Airtran 717s go to Moline now? Won't Delta be getting 717s? Why won't they be going to Moline? Btw, it won't be 100 new 76 seaters going to DCI, rather 70, if the 717s show up. Then dump 150 50 seaters, for a net loss of 80 50 seaters total. A B-scale RJ flown by mainline is just too costly. There is no way mainline can fly cheaper than the whipsawed Regionals. If the TA passes, there will be caps on RJs, ratios to keep mainline flying more domestic than DCI, and 717s coming to hit places like Moline, with mainline payscales. 12th year Captain on the 717 starting in Jan of 2015 (2 1/2 years from now) will be $195 an hour, and it will be the smallest and lowest paying mainline jet. That is what people should be striving for.


Bye Bye---General Lee

You never really did get the downward pressure RJs have placed on mainline wages have you?

Ok- why is Virgin FO pay roughly RJ capt pay?

I know you want your payraise and you feel you're entitled-
The rest of the industry feels entitled to call you sellouts and believe you're cutting the legs out from under UAL and AA when they are losing ground on bigger airplane scope.
And for what? A temporary contract wage that's not all that great.

The -900's are in wet cement- Do this and the cement sets- DALPA has now validated the BK move during profitable times. Outsourced -900's are now industry standard and mgmts worldwide breath a sigh of relief as they have a reasonable replacement for the whipsaw market at these fuel prices. It's very important for them to keep a certain percentage of airline pilots whipsawed and disenfranchised to keep that downward pressure on mainline.

The bottom line is you want the profits that come from all those pilots you screw to go into your pocket. It's short sighted at best. And absolutely doesn't work.

HAVE YOU LEARNED NOTHING IN THE LAST TWENTY YEARS??

I'm amazed that DALPA pilots are so clueless that this could get out of committee.

I'm about to start looking up old threads General where you promised that this is a new DALPA - that you guys really got it now and would get the flying back.

50 seaters are going away no matter what you do- get that in your head.

 

[jtf]

Don't the Airtran 717s go to Moline now? Won't Delta be getting 717s? Why won't they be going to Moline? Btw, it won't be 100 new 76 seaters going to DCI, rather 70, if the 717s show up. Then dump 150 50 seaters, for a net loss of 80 50 seaters total. A B-scale RJ flown by mainline is just too costly. There is no way mainline can fly cheaper than the whipsawed Regionals. If the TA passes, there will be caps on RJs, ratios to keep mainline flying more domestic than DCI, and 717s coming to hit places like Moline, with mainline payscales. 12th year Captain on the 717 starting in Jan of 2015 (2 1/2 years from now) will be $195 an hour, and it will be the smallest and lowest paying mainline jet. That is what people should be striving for.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Fly them with mainline as a b-scale and the company will still get rid of the majority of 50 seaters since they are not economical. Keep as many out of the hands of the competitors for your own jobs. Don't waste negotiating capital on what you can get for fre. Maybe it costs a little more to operate even on the b-scale, but then maybe it makes the company buy 190s or c-series for mainline to fly to replace 50 seaters instead. 76 seaters are just another contractually bound number that is better than 50 or 70, but is it truly the best size for the market, or just the best size for whipsaw? Is this TA truly take it or we go to full traditional negotiations in 7 months? Maybe it can be tweaked better in the pilots favor if reworked. I think selling off scope should be much more expensive than what I believe has been said to be a basically cost neutral deal. At least that would allow the other carriers in negotiations to go for more money even as their scope stands are undercut.

 

[General Lee]

You never really did get the downward pressure RJs have placed on mainline wages have you?

Ok- why is Virgin FO pay roughly RJ capt pay?

I know you want your payraise and you feel you're entitled-
The rest of the industry feels entitled to call you sellouts and believe you're cutting the legs out from under UAL and AA when they are losing ground on bigger airplane scope.
And for what? A temporary contract wage that's not all that great.

The -900's are in wet cement- Do this and the cement sets- DALPA has now validated the BK move during profitable times. Outsourced -900's are now industry standard and mgmts worldwide breath a sigh of relief as they have a reasonable replacement for the whipsaw market at these fuel prices. It's very important for them to keep a certain percentage of airline pilots whipsawed and disenfranchised to keep that downward pressure on mainline.

The bottom line is you want the profits that come from all those pilots you screw to go into your pocket. It's short sighted at best. And absolutely doesn't work.

HAVE YOU LEARNED NOTHING IN THE LAST TWENTY YEARS??

I'm amazed that DALPA pilots are so clueless that this could get out of committee.

I'm about to start looking up old threads General where you promised that this is a new DALPA - that you guys really got it now and would get the flying back.

50 seaters are going away no matter what you do- get that in your head.

I guess I "saw the light...." This TA isn't the best, but right now it is a good deal. I see what you are saying about the -900s, but I am more concerned about a reduction overall, and even though the 50s are leaving "anyway", most of them have leases that keep going on for years. If they don't make money due to higher oil or need expensive MX checks, then maybe a slightly larger ( a 70 seater has 20 more seats, the 76 seater has 26 more) RJ flying between the same city pairs might be able to find that better profit? Being hard headed about everything can also screw up a good business. The DCI footprint will be smaller, and mainline larger. That cannot be disputed, in overall RJ numbers and seats total. That is the end goal. RJs will always be around, because not all cities can handle a mainline plane. And, mainline costs flying a 76 seater won't work, and we won't go for the D scale at mainline. Instead, have a hard cap on numbers, establish a ratio that keeps mainline ahead, and add 717s that recapture more of the old mainline flying that went to DCI. Throw in a 20% raise in 3 years, and it's a pretty good TA. Not perfect, but not bad.

Wave, keep re-reading this above if you have anymore questions.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Fly them with mainline as a b-scale and the company will still get rid of the majority of 50 seaters since they are not economical. Keep as many out of the hands of the competitors for your own jobs. Don't waste negotiating capital on what you can get for fre. Maybe it costs a little more to operate even on the b-scale, but then maybe it makes the company buy 190s or c-series for mainline to fly to replace 50 seaters instead. 76 seaters are just another contractually bound number that is better than 50 or 70, but is it truly the best size for the market, or just the best size for whipsaw? Is this TA truly take it or we go to full traditional negotiations in 7 months? Maybe it can be tweaked better in the pilots favor if reworked. I think selling off scope should be much more expensive than what I believe has been said to be a basically cost neutral deal. At least that would allow the other carriers in negotiations to go for more money even as their scope stands are undercut.

No, the company has lease obligations for more than 300 of them through 2015 and beyond. Turning down the TA will allow management to funnel the money that would have gone in our pockets to help pay for those expensive MX checks many of those 50 seaters are coming up for anyway. This TA was done 7 months BEFORE the contract ammendable date. Normal section 6 talks take more than 2 years, with mediation usually occuring at an impasse after about 1 year. Then you get in line and wait for mediation with the NMB, who already told our MEC in a special meeting that we could EXPECT pattern bargaining with USAir, AA, and UAL ONLY. They then were informed NOT to expect any retro back pay, and told the process will take 2 1/2 years. So, instead of waiting that long, and probably increasing our demands to make up for NO PAY INCREASES for 3 more years, instead we can already have that 20% in our pockets, and be ready to exchange new openers for the NEXT contract. There are improvements in many areas, and the Scope section tightens a lot of the INTL and Domestic code shares and Joint Ventures, and the RJ scope gives caps and ratios that help mainline pilots.

The economic view in the World today also isn't great right now. Airlines will probably do a bit better with lower oil prices as of late, but the US economy isn't gaining momentum, and China is about to deflate according to several analysts. Europe really isn't doing well either. Can you see my point? Going back for more may not yeild much at all, and the offer might come back even worse. That is exactly what happened in our NW/DL joint contract. Initially the offer was 7/4/4/4 (7%, 4% etc). After the NW MEC balked, the next offer was 5/4/4/4. (for a 4 year contract---17%) This TA is for a 3 year contract, for about 20%.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[HelloNewman]

I am simply ashamed of how long it has taken us to get a JCBA done. The focus should be on CAPPING ALL regional flying instead of simply allowing unlimited 50 seat airplanes and "recapturing " 70 seaters, which is simply unrealistic. The 50 seaters are losers and business travellers hate them. At least with the 70 seaters the business travellers can upgrade to first and have a bit more room. The ship sailed long ago for any mainline pilot to fly that size of airplane. We need to dump as many 50 seaters in our connection fleet and replace them with 70s at a 2 for 1 ratio( every 2 50s retired = 1 70 seater) thus an overall reduction in Continental Connection/United Express.

We need to reduce overall regional capacity and allow more marketable airplanes(ones with first class) WITH furlough protections(ie they furlough from mainline then we flow back into the bigger RJs) Lets just say the regionals are pretty much at our mercy at this point so they either agree to giving any furloughs captain slots or they lose their contracts. They are so desperate they will have to agree to it. Anyone who thinks the NMB will release us over scope is simply out of touch. Especially with the economy as fragile as it is.

As much as the CAL/UAL chest thumpers hate to admit it the General is right. An increase in 70 seat scope with an overal decrease in a regional connection fleet overall is a huge step in the right direction. Remember it takes baby steps.

 

[jtf]

Furlough protections with regionals are worth about a much as toilet paper. The next time you are furloughed has a pretty good chance of being in bankruptcy. That kills scope when the bigger airplanes are already on property. Scope has a chance when it costs money to bring the planes on while in bankruptcy, but there it's no way a bankruptcy judge backs scope when the planes are already there.

 

[bigshooter107]

Just curious for the No voters, what would be acceptable?

 

[General Lee]

Furlough protections with regionals are worth about a much as toilet paper. The next time you are furloughed has a pretty good chance of being in bankruptcy. That kills scope when the bigger airplanes are already on property. Scope has a chance when it costs money to bring the planes on while in bankruptcy, but there it's no way a bankruptcy judge backs scope when the planes are already there.

Management really doesn't want to go back to BK, because in BK you can lose control of the company. USAir tried and almost succeeded in forcing a merger with Delta, and they are doing that now with AA. Nobody wants to lose control, so BK is the LAST thing they want to do. One thing you do want is a successful, strong company. If 50 seaters aren't cutting it, and a 70 or 76 seater could make money on the connection routes that are a bit too small for a narrowbody at mainline, then that will add to profits and hopefully never allow the company to go into BK. You don't want to keep the planes around that add losses due to inefficiency, and you don't want to cut routes that add feed to the larger planes.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[jtf]

No, the company has lease obligations for more than 300 of them through 2015 and beyond. Turning down the TA will allow management to funnel the money that would have gone in our pockets to help pay for those expensive MX checks many of those 50 seaters are coming up for anyway. This TA was done 7 months BEFORE the contract ammendable date. Normal section 6 talks take more than 2 years, with mediation usually occuring at an impasse after about 1 year. Then you get in line and wait for mediation with the NMB, who already told our MEC in a special meeting that we could EXPECT pattern bargaining with USAir, AA, and UAL ONLY. They then were informed NOT to expect any retro back pay, and told the process will take 2 1/2 years. So, instead of waiting that long, and probably increasing our demands to make up for NO PAY INCREASES for 3 more years, instead we can already have that 20% in our pockets, and be ready to exchange new openers for the NEXT contract. There are improvements in many areas, and the Scope section tightens a lot of the INTL and Domestic code shares and Joint Ventures, and the RJ scope gives caps and ratios that help mainline pilots.

The economic view in the World today also isn't great right now. Airlines will probably do a bit better with lower oil prices as of late, but the US economy isn't gaining momentum, and China is about to deflate according to several analysts. Europe really isn't doing well either. Can you see my point? Going back for more may not yeild much at all, and the offer might come back even worse. That is exactly what happened in our NW/DL joint contract. Initially the offer was 7/4/4/4 (7%, 4% etc). After the NW MEC balked, the next offer was 5/4/4/4. (for a 4 year contract---17%) This TA is for a 3 year contract, for about 20%.


Bye Bye---General Lee

So accepting the TA makes the leases go away? If they are going to accept trade ins for regionally flown 900s, I'm sure they would accept trade ins for mainline flown 900s also and they would probably make an even better trade in deal for new c-series. Also nothing says they can't keep similar or the same scope while offering better money to sell out quickly to continue on with their new business plan. I refuse to believe you don't have any more leverage to do better and to do it quickly instead of the traditional route of negotiations if the company indeed really wants this new business plan. If they don't REALLY want it now, why would they offer "improvements" before they even have to come to the table for anything? You CAN do better and you won't have to wait years to do it. You just have to stand together to get it. Giving up scope and profit sharing and offering too work more (staff more effectively/ hire less) to make it cost neutral just shouldn't be "good enough". Please raise the bar well beyond "cost neutral" if you are going to sell scope.

 

[waveflyer]

Furlough protections with regionals are worth about a much as toilet paper. The next time you are furloughed has a pretty good chance of being in bankruptcy. That kills scope when the bigger airplanes are already on property. Scope has a chance when it costs money to bring the planes on while in bankruptcy, but there it's no way a bankruptcy judge backs scope when the planes are already there.

This^^^


We've already been down this route-

First of all GL, please answer a few questions:
1) Do RJ pilots EVER get to vote on what flying comes their way?

2) if an aircraft needs a whipsawed disenfranchised labor market to sustain it, should an airline fly it at all?

3) if that RJ produces the profit only by keeping labor wages low (bc it's "too expensive" for mainline to fly them) - why do YOU as a mainline pilot feel like you deserve a piece of that profit? You don't see the shadyness of that?