The culture of the managment determines the safety level

[o2bflyn]

I'm not making excuses for their piloting. I'm just tired of all the "well they were violating sterile cockpit, that must be the cause!" bullcrap.

They were violating the "sterile cockpit". Maybe if they kept their mouth and minds on the act of flying the approach, we would not be having this conversation.

I am sure you and I could go round and round about this one for days. It is my opinion, if they would have observed the "sterile cockpit" and concentrated on the approach, we would not be having this arguement.

 

[imacdog]

Just watch the video again. From the time everything was peachy to when the airspeed decay started, there was no conversation beyond the checklist. If we continue to concentrate on sterile cockpit issues that happened well before the approach, we miss the chance to look for other factors (both systemic and specific to this flight) that may have lead up to the accident. It's the error chain - the act of breaking sterile cockpit in itself isn't enough to put a plane into the ground. What were the other links? Hopefully the NTSB will put out some recommendations that the FAA takes to heart in helping to prevent this in the future.

 

[o2bflyn]

Just watch the video again. From the time everything was peachy to when the airspeed decay started, there was no conversation beyond the checklist. If we continue to concentrate on sterile cockpit issues that happened well before the approach, we miss the chance to look for other factors (both systemic and specific to this flight) that may have lead up to the accident. It's the error chain - the act of breaking sterile cockpit in itself isn't enough to put a plane into the ground. What were the other links? Hopefully the NTSB will put out some recommendations that the FAA takes to heart in helping to prevent this in the future.

I can certainly see your point there. You are right, "sterile cockpit" was not the only cause of the accident. I really think it played an important factor in the distraction though.

Unfortunately, we may never know they 100% real cause of this one.

 

[CMRdvr]

I would submit that because the autopilot was on until the stall, the autopilot probably trimmed the nose full up. The shaker then disconnected the autopilot and the captain added power to recover causing the aircraft to pitch to the moon. I seriously doubt he could have overcome the control forces. The control column would have been full aft despite him pushing as hard as he could....

Interesting and possible. I am not familer enough with the Q400 autoflight or control systems to dispute that. I will repeat that a review of the FDR plots will reveal what the autopilot and trim systems were doing at the time they disconected. In addition, it will show what forces the pilot applied and in what direction. I have not checked into this in any detail so I was only offering one of many possibilites not trying to give a definitive analysis. I do find it unlikely that the pilot was pushing forward given the available facts. However, as I said, I have not reviewed the evidence in any detail. I was just offering my opinion. Most often it turns out to be a combination of events and reactions versus one nice neat answer.

 

[brokeflyer]

it appears that a $40,000/yr pilot flew into $100,000/yr weather.

if management wasnt so stingy trying to fill their own pockets they would raise ticket prices and save lives.

 

[pilotyip]

Answers?

it appears that a $40,000/yr pilot flew into $100,000/yr weather.

if management wasnt so stingy trying to fill their own pockets they would raise ticket prices and save lives.

If you have the managment answers it is your duty to come into management and save the profession. This is repeat but if fits here. This is a pilot board so saying anything in defense of management is like peeing into the wind, that is, it is going to come back to you. CEO's are not intentionally running airlines into the ground. They would very much like to succeed. For lack of other reason it would make their resume look great, they would be doing something no other CEO had ever done. Top management includes many besides the CEO, the CEO sets direction as requested by the board. The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity. There is little they can do inside their structure. Other high paid top management personnel, in Operations, Maintenance. Marketing, Legal, Finance, etc. have unique skills in dealing with large organizations. This makes them marketable when shopping for a job, unlike pilots whose skills are nearly universal. Now I will agree that CEO leadership in many cases leaves much to be desired. An issue of ATW in 2002 had an article about "Airline Management a dying breed", the article basically said no one wants to do it. The good track record CEO’s are going to other industries. With tremendous, payrolls, overhead burdens, and extremely low margins, there is no tried and true path to success. Most have tried to increase market share, but this has lead to low price and ridiculous breakeven load factors in 95% range. The consumer with internet ticket price access seeking the lowest fare, drives management to always seek lower costs to stay competitive. What is management supposed to do? Eliminating management will bring the end quicker for the airplane industry, and their salaries are insignificant to the airlines operating costs. Without management you could not operate the airline, The FAA would shut it down without approved Part 119 key management. Would the pilots step up and become management for free in their spare time? Why is every time, pilot salaries come up, they are immediately compared to top management. I saw an article in ATW in 2001 that stated at DAL there were 17 members of top management made more than the top DAL Captain. The combined top 17 salaries equaled less than 1/6 of 1% of the combined pilot salaries. If management worked for free all pilots in the company would get a 1/10 of 1% raise. (for a $100K per year pilot that would be $3/wk increase in take home) Boy that raise would really make the pilot group happy. Top management possesses skills that allow them to move from job to job and command high salaries. And every one of these managers wants to see his/her airline prosper. They just can not d

 

[waka]

If you have the managment answers it is your duty to come into management and save the profession. This is repeat but if fits here. This is a pilot board so saying anything in defense of management is like peeing into the wind, that is, it is going to come back to you. CEO's are not intentionally running airlines into the ground. They would very much like to succeed. For lack of other reason it would make their resume look great, they would be doing something no other CEO had ever done. Top management includes many besides the CEO, the CEO sets direction as requested by the board. The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity. There is little they can do inside their structure. Other high paid top management personnel, in Operations, Maintenance. Marketing, Legal, Finance, etc. have unique skills in dealing with large organizations. This makes them marketable when shopping for a job, unlike pilots whose skills are nearly universal. Now I will agree that CEO leadership in many cases leaves much to be desired. An issue of ATW in 2002 had an article about "Airline Management a dying breed", the article basically said no one wants to do it. The good track record CEO’s are going to other industries. With tremendous, payrolls, overhead burdens, and extremely low margins, there is no tried and true path to success. Most have tried to increase market share, but this has lead to low price and ridiculous breakeven load factors in 95% range. The consumer with internet ticket price access seeking the lowest fare, drives management to always seek lower costs to stay competitive. What is management supposed to do? Eliminating management will bring the end quicker for the airplane industry, and their salaries are insignificant to the airlines operating costs. Without management you could not operate the airline, The FAA would shut it down without approved Part 119 key management. Would the pilots step up and become management for free in their spare time? Why is every time, pilot salaries come up, they are immediately compared to top management. I saw an article in ATW in 2001 that stated at DAL there were 17 members of top management made more than the top DAL Captain. The combined top 17 salaries equaled less than 1/6 of 1% of the combined pilot salaries. If management worked for free all pilots in the company would get a 1/10 of 1% raise. (for a $100K per year pilot that would be $3/wk increase in take home) Boy that raise would really make the pilot group happy. Top management possesses skills that allow them to move from job to job and command high salaries. And every one of these managers wants to see his/her airline prosper. They just can not d

There is a novel concept in writing and it is called a paragraph!:smash:

That said, I don't know about your math but, how many pilots did Delta have in 03? 10,000?

 

[pilotyip]

There is a novel concept in writing and it is called a paragraph!:smash:

That said, I don't know about your math but, how many pilots did Delta have in 03? 10,000?

10K in late 01, by 03 down to about 7.5, lots of senior bail outs prior to BK. What is a paragraph?

 

[Mike Jenvey]

Reference my post #29, please see here- 82 kts & 44 degs pitch-up = out of trim condition & out of elevator authority!!!

 

[Mungusaurus]

Next time you go fly trim your airplane for 100 knots with the autopilot disconnected then add 10000 shaft horsepower to it (remember turboprop not jet) and watch what happens. The aircraft will attempt to maintain 100 knots.
Add to that you've been awake since 0300 and it's now 2216.
They screwed up yes, but its not the only factor.