The culture of the managment determines the safety level

Semore Butts

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This was just aired on Fox news regarding the Colgan flight.

Seems as if society is starting to look at how the company is managed as opposed to just saying Pilot Error, Pilot Error, Pilot error!!!!

People are starting to say, "why did they error"?

I didn't get the exact quote, it is 05:20 in the morning.

Take care, Semore
 

flydog1

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I watched that this morning to. But not recovering from a stall properly, I would have to say is pilot error. I do believe they had ice build up also which added in that.
Also hiring capts off the street doesn't help when you are new to an aircraft and low time. I sent fox and friends an email saying they need to have a mini story series for a week telling the public how much commuter pilots and others really get paid and how these companies are run. Seems they think because the FO didn't get paid enough also would cause a crash. Thats such such BS. Its time for the media to expose how much pilots really make and what we go through just to get a good job.
 

o2bflyn

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This was just aired on Fox news regarding the Colgan flight.

Seems as if society is starting to look at how the company is managed as opposed to just saying Pilot Error, Pilot Error, Pilot error!!!!

People are starting to say, "why did they error"?

I didn't get the exact quote, it is 05:20 in the morning.

Take care, Semore
I agree with what you are saying here, but in this case it really is pilot error.

By the time you are flying large aircraft your recovery from a stall should be automatic. I don't care how long your commute was or how tired you are, one should be able to recover from a stall. The fact there were goofing off during the approach is the reason they did not see the stall coming in the first place.

Other than paying closer attention to the Captains training failures, I don't see how management could have changed much to prevent this one.
 

Semore Butts

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People are starting to say, "why did they error"?

Don't narrow in on that accident O2B.

That situation is just what brought it up.

Airline safety has improved alot over the years.

Where could we go in the next generation of making air travel safer?

Policing up rest and duty days maybe?

Taking the emphasis off of profits in the short term? (This is managements gig, not pilots)

(I know it always boils down to money)

I was just pointing out that John "Q" Public is becoming more aware of the flying environment they are in.

Good luck to you all in this haphazard environment. Semore
 

pilotyip

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The answer is off the street Captains, new rules 5000TT to be an airline Capt, must be typed in at least 3 different airplanes, no age limit.
 

ksu_aviator

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Who says he actually pulled back on the control column? AE 4184 had control issues that came from ice build up. It may be that the change in pitch associated with flap exentions caused an airflow pattern that forced the controls back. Don't rush to judgement so fast.
 

Dooker

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That's true. Coulda been a tailplane icing issue.

But still.

The jet I fly has the same tubes as the Q400. It just amazes me that someone, regardless of fatigue or regardless of the fact that he's a 47-year-old doofus distracted beyond all reason by the fact that he's sitting beside a 24-year-old hottie FO--could miss that red line marching up from the bottom of the speed tape.
 

gutshotdraw

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The answer is off the street Captains, new rules 5000TT to be an airline Capt, must be typed in at least 3 different airplanes, no age limit.

Ah...........

no.
 

CMRdvr

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Who says he actually pulled back on the control column? AE 4184 had control issues that came from ice build up. It may be that the change in pitch associated with flap exentions caused an airflow pattern that forced the controls back. Don't rush to judgement so fast.
The Q400 does not have reversible controls on the elevator, only the ailerons. I could be wrong, Q400 drivers correct me. In that case the control column would not snatch with the control surface.
 

Cavpilot

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pilotyip[LEFT said:
[/LEFT];1812469]The answer is off the street Captains, new rules 5000TT to be an airline Capt, must be typed in at least 3 different airplanes, no age limit.
Hey, those are great ideas! Let me add a few more....

1. You must be right handed.
2. You must have visited Mexico at least 3 times.
3. If you have ever flown a helicopter, you are
automatically disqualified.
4. You must have logged at least 100 MLS approaches.
5. You must have at least 200 posts on flightinfo.
 

acaTerry

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Hey, those are great ideas! Let me add a few more....

1. You must be right handed.
2. You must have visited Mexico at least 3 times.
3. If you have ever flown a helicopter, you are automatically disqualified.
4. You must have logged at least 100 MLS approaches.
5. You must have at least 200 posts on flightinfo.
Well, I get the gist of your post CavPilot, but I have to agree with item number 3...rotorhead:p
 

ksu_aviator

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The Q400 does not have reversible controls on the elevator, only the ailerons. I could be wrong, Q400 drivers correct me. In that case the control column would not snatch with the control surface.
Not reversible controls. I'm talking about aerodynamic forces that are so strong they force the elevator to the full up position and despite the pilot's attempts to push forward, the elevator remains in that condition.
 

DUATS

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The answer is off the street Captains, new rules 5000TT to be an airline Capt, must be typed in at least 3 different airplanes, no age limit.
How about just requiring an ATP for either seat?
 

jonjuan

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Not reversible controls. I'm talking about aerodynamic forces that are so strong they force the elevator to the full up position and despite the pilot's attempts to push forward, the elevator remains in that condition.
Not at 120 knots, my friend.
 

o2bflyn

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Who says he actually pulled back on the control column? AE 4184 had control issues that came from ice build up. It may be that the change in pitch associated with flap exentions caused an airflow pattern that forced the controls back. Don't rush to judgement so fast.
FDR tapes show he pulled the yoke back, then relaxed the back pressure....aerodynamic forces would have pitched the elevator to the nose up position and left it there.

It looks to me that, the crew was distracting themselves with conversation during a very critical phase of flight. No one was flying the plane, ot someone would have seen the speed decaying. They should not have even been in the stall to begin with, but when they found themselves there, the Captain's recovery was not correct. Maybe he thought he was in a tail stall, maybe not, but he should have been paying attention to his airplane during the approach.
 

o2bflyn

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Don't narrow in on that accident O2B.

That situation is just what brought it up.

Airline safety has improved alot over the years.

Where could we go in the next generation of making air travel safer?

Policing up rest and duty days maybe?

Taking the emphasis off of profits in the short term? (This is managements gig, not pilots)

(I know it always boils down to money)

I was just pointing out that John "Q" Public is becoming more aware of the flying environment they are in.

Good luck to you all in this haphazard environment. Semore
Semore,

I agree with what you are saying with regards to management focusing more on profits than anything else. I am sure that is the problem in some operations. Should we be paid more when we first start out in this career? Absolutely. Do pilots sometimes feel forced into flying when they are fatigued? I am sure that happens.

My point is more that the pilots have to take some responsibility. If you are commuting to work, commute in a way that gets to your flight assignment on time and adequately rested. If you know you have a flight assignment at 0800, then you commute and get yourself rested for a 0800 flight. If you are not fit to fly, call in fatigued. Will you get some "carpet time" for it....maybe. Isn't that better than dead.

Semore, I am not saying that management has no responsibilty here. Does their low pay lead to pilots having to live at home a do crazy commutes to work? Yes. All I am saying is its the pilots responsibility to be ready for work. No matter how much, or in this case little, you get paid. you agreed to do a job, a job that requires very safety minded operation. As an individual person, you have to determine if you are fit to perfomr your duties.
 

pilotyip

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need'em

Semore,

I agree with what you are saying with regards to management focusing more on profits .
If you do not have these, you do not have business, or employees, or benefits or anything. So of course management has to focus on profits. BTW It does seem though at times that pilots detest profits and anytime a company declares a profit there is cry to pass it through to the pilots.
 

o2bflyn

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If you do not have these, you do not have business, or employees, or benefits or anything. So of course management has to focus on profits. BTW It does seem though at times that pilots detest profits and anytime a company declares a profit there is cry to pass it through to the pilots.
I never said they shouldn't focus on profits, but there is a point were the pursuit of profits works as a detrement to the business. Pushing pilots to fly fatigued would be one of those examples.
 

Semore Butts

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Fox news again this morning

The one guest was saying that she would pay more for a ticket if it would make here safer and get the pilots better pay.

The other guest said that many people couldn't afford the higher fares.

The one guest said the low fare carriers couldn't afford all that safety and better pilot pay.

The other guest said really? Have you ever heard of a company called Southwest Airlines?

(He blew her out of the water in my opinion with the SWA statement)

If what the "raise the fare" lady was correct then I guess the pecking order would be;

Stock holders
Management salaries
Safety,Pilot Pay and Benefits?

I don't know the answer. I'm just glad to see the public taking an interest in air travel safety.

I do agree with the above poster that this will be soon forgotten.

Take care
 
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