The culture of the managment determines the safety level

[o2bflyn]

Who says he actually pulled back on the control column? AE 4184 had control issues that came from ice build up. It may be that the change in pitch associated with flap exentions caused an airflow pattern that forced the controls back. Don't rush to judgement so fast.

FDR tapes show he pulled the yoke back, then relaxed the back pressure....aerodynamic forces would have pitched the elevator to the nose up position and left it there.

It looks to me that, the crew was distracting themselves with conversation during a very critical phase of flight. No one was flying the plane, ot someone would have seen the speed decaying. They should not have even been in the stall to begin with, but when they found themselves there, the Captain's recovery was not correct. Maybe he thought he was in a tail stall, maybe not, but he should have been paying attention to his airplane during the approach.

 

[o2bflyn]

Don't narrow in on that accident O2B.

That situation is just what brought it up.

Airline safety has improved alot over the years.

Where could we go in the next generation of making air travel safer?

Policing up rest and duty days maybe?

Taking the emphasis off of profits in the short term? (This is managements gig, not pilots)

(I know it always boils down to money)

I was just pointing out that John "Q" Public is becoming more aware of the flying environment they are in.

Good luck to you all in this haphazard environment. Semore

Semore,

I agree with what you are saying with regards to management focusing more on profits than anything else. I am sure that is the problem in some operations. Should we be paid more when we first start out in this career? Absolutely. Do pilots sometimes feel forced into flying when they are fatigued? I am sure that happens.

My point is more that the pilots have to take some responsibility. If you are commuting to work, commute in a way that gets to your flight assignment on time and adequately rested. If you know you have a flight assignment at 0800, then you commute and get yourself rested for a 0800 flight. If you are not fit to fly, call in fatigued. Will you get some "carpet time" for it....maybe. Isn't that better than dead.

Semore, I am not saying that management has no responsibilty here. Does their low pay lead to pilots having to live at home a do crazy commutes to work? Yes. All I am saying is its the pilots responsibility to be ready for work. No matter how much, or in this case little, you get paid. you agreed to do a job, a job that requires very safety minded operation. As an individual person, you have to determine if you are fit to perfomr your duties.

 

[pilotyip]

need'em

Semore,

I agree with what you are saying with regards to management focusing more on profits .

If you do not have these, you do not have business, or employees, or benefits or anything. So of course management has to focus on profits. BTW It does seem though at times that pilots detest profits and anytime a company declares a profit there is cry to pass it through to the pilots.

 

[o2bflyn]

If you do not have these, you do not have business, or employees, or benefits or anything. So of course management has to focus on profits. BTW It does seem though at times that pilots detest profits and anytime a company declares a profit there is cry to pass it through to the pilots.

I never said they shouldn't focus on profits, but there is a point were the pursuit of profits works as a detrement to the business. Pushing pilots to fly fatigued would be one of those examples.

 

[Semore Butts]

Fox news again this morning

The one guest was saying that she would pay more for a ticket if it would make here safer and get the pilots better pay.

The other guest said that many people couldn't afford the higher fares.

The one guest said the low fare carriers couldn't afford all that safety and better pilot pay.

The other guest said really? Have you ever heard of a company called Southwest Airlines?

(He blew her out of the water in my opinion with the SWA statement)

If what the "raise the fare" lady was correct then I guess the pecking order would be;

Stock holders
Management salaries
Safety,Pilot Pay and Benefits?

I don't know the answer. I'm just glad to see the public taking an interest in air travel safety.

I do agree with the above poster that this will be soon forgotten.

Take care

 

[imacdog]

It looks to me that, the crew was distracting themselves with conversation during a very critical phase of flight. No one was flying the plane, ot someone would have seen the speed decaying. They should not have even been in the stall to begin with, but when they found themselves there, the Captain's recovery was not correct. Maybe he thought he was in a tail stall, maybe not, but he should have been paying attention to his airplane during the approach.

Watch the animation again - there was no extraneous conversation going on in the moments leading up to the approach. Both crewmembers were silent before the speed decay began.

 

[o2bflyn]

Watch the animation again - there was no extraneous conversation going on in the moments leading up to the approach. Both crewmembers were silent before the speed decay began.

So, they watch the airspeed bleed off like that???? That's even worse.

 

[imacdog]

Or didn't watch, as the case may be. Just don't make up stuff like "the crew was distracting themselves with conversation during a very critical phase of flight". That's the media's job.

 

[o2bflyn]

Or didn't watch, as the case may be. Just don't make up stuff like "the crew was distracting themselves with conversation during a very critical phase of flight". That's the media's job.

Were they talking at all about non flight related issues below 10,000 feet? Yes. Were they talking about non flight related issues when they should have been preparing for an approach at low altitude a mere 3 minutes before the crash? Yes.

That is critical phase of flight in my book. Stop making excuses for bad piloting, that's their parents job.

 

[CMRdvr]

Not reversible controls. I'm talking about aerodynamic forces that are so strong they force the elevator to the full up position and despite the pilot's attempts to push forward, the elevator remains in that condition.

Sorry. I missed what you were saying. I believe that the FDR records the forced applied to the controls via pressure transducers. A check of the FDR plot from the NTSB would show that. I can't say off the top of my head, but I believe they know the control column was deflected. The only way for that to happen in the Q400 would be the pilot doing it. The FDR plot will also describe the various inputs and outputs recorded prior to the data for reference. That would be a way to see if the elevator was forced or moved by the pilot.

 

[imacdog]

Were they talking at all about non flight related issues below 10,000 feet? Yes. Were they talking about non flight related issues when they should have been preparing for an approach at low altitude a mere 3 minutes before the crash? Yes.

That is critical phase of flight in my book. Stop making excuses for bad piloting, that's their parents job.

I'm not making excuses for their piloting. I'm just tired of all the "well they were violating sterile cockpit, that must be the cause!" bullcrap.

 

[400pilot]

The only way for that to happen in the Q400 would be the pilot doing it. The FDR plot will also describe the various inputs and outputs recorded prior to the data for reference. That would be a way to see if the elevator was forced or moved by the pilot.

I would submit that because the autopilot was on until the stall, the autopilot probably trimmed the nose full up. The shaker then disconnected the autopilot and the captain added power to recover causing the aircraft to pitch to the moon. I seriously doubt he could have overcome the control forces. The control column would have been full aft despite him pushing as hard as he could....

 

[jonjuan]

I would submit that because the autopilot was on until the stall, the autopilot probably trimmed the nose full up. The shaker then disconnected the autopilot and the captain added power to recover causing the aircraft to pitch to the moon. I seriously doubt he could have overcome the control forces. The control column would have been full aft despite him pushing as hard as he could....

Are you up to level 26 on MS flight sim 2010 yet?

 

[Mike Jenvey]

No idea of the Q400 flight characteristics, but the pitch & trim theory doesn't sound that half-baked - & note that the combination of low speed, autopilot trim & marked pitch up may have been major factors in the recent Turkish airline crash at Amsterdam Schipol airport (but no icing with this crash).

 

[gunfyter]

Yeah Mike. I know you are not recovering from any stall if the Citation X is out of trim ... nor will you land the airplane on anything but the nose gear if the trim is too forward. At least in the sim.... if the trim is out of the white arc.