The CS response to NJ ammended contract

[SpaceBall 1]

Spaceball,

Just curious, what kind of schedule do you guys fly at CS? Not flame bait. I'm just wondering what kind of schedule you're on since you said we work 'long schedules' here at NJA.

For the record, as is commonly known, the most popular schedule is the 7/7. So that's 7 days on.

The 18-day schedule is capped at 7-day tour lengths too, with one exception per every four months that they can extend a tour to 8 days. But only one tour and only once in a four month period. And it's not mandatory. Just a possibility.

On the 15-day schedule the longest tour length is 5 days (but I think with the possibility of only 3 off afterwards). But again, with a maximum of 15 days worked each month.

On the 7/7 we work 182 days/year (minus training events and vacations, so really a lot less). Pretty similar to that on the 15 day schedule. On the 18 day sched it's 216/year (minus training and vacations).

So seriously wondering, how much less do you work than us that our schedules are 'long' to you?

Also want to clarify that we do have weekend starts. But we also have plenty of weekday starts. There are a surprising number of pilots here that prefer a weekend start, so the odds are really good that if you want a weekday start you can get it. Just mentioning it because you make it sound like weekend starts are all we have and/or are forced onto them.

We are 7 n 7 across the board which is 182 days/year minus training and vacation. The big pay difference between you and us (which is what everyone looks at) is on the 18 day schedule. For me, thats alot to work in a month. With the 18 day tour being capped at 7 days in a row, I suppose you do short times off?? Not flaming, I just don't know. Also, can it be junior manned if nobody bids it? I could work an 18 day schedule here (and many do) just with OT. Not for me though. All I hear is that is where all the new hires are going.

The 15 day schedule....for me would suck. I like knowing in advance when I am off and when I am on. Again..just what I hear.

Weekend starts....not for me and alot of pilots here. I a have a family with kids in school. Having my weekends desroyed by having to go to work is not a good QOL. Again...this is for my lifestyle before everyone gets their panties in a twist. However, many if not most of our pilots here would not want weekend start dates. I had some buddies here in the Bravo when it was Monday starts.....they were not happy. For the record we start Tues, Wed and Thurs. I know that the weekend starts are not all that you have, but if someone is not "senior" enough to hold a non-weekend start....are they not being forced onto that schedule??

 

[SpaceBall 1]

Please keep in mind that:

1. I merely posted what will be printed in AIN next week. Not like I gave away the recipe for the secret sauce.

2. I made no comments WRT my feelings on the matter.

But since you sorta asked, frankly, the response scares the cr*p out of me on a number of levels, not the least of which is the part about not making decisions based on our competitions actions, as mentioned by someone else. This is the first truely scary thing I've seen put out by CS in all my time there (and it's quite a bit of time, BTW). The head in the sand attitude put forth in that message is freakin me out, not to mention the implied message that if AIN hadn't asked, they wouldn't have bothered to say anything. Seems very much unlike the CS I have come to know and love. And in all honestly, I really do love it.

Rotello

Dude, I don't think the entire letter will be posted in AIN. Just the quoted parts. If thats all you would have posted....fine. As far as basing decisions on other companies...should we go buy Challenger 300's since flex is getting them or maybe we need Gulfstreams, which I really wouldn't mind Besides, I have on good authority that an e-mail was going to be sent to the pilot group anyway. Nothing to be scared about.

 

[SpaceBall 1]

dude,

Long schedules? we have the 18 day schedule, that's the longest and is voluntary. it also pays 69k 1st year SIC pay

so if nobody bids the 18 days then you would have 90% on the 7/7 and 10% on the 15 day schedule.

plus, the aircraft I'm on has Sat. starts and Tue. starts. you guys don't work weekends? must be the only company in the world that doesn't work weekends.

you were saying??

Dude,

Yes, we work weekends. Be kindda hard not too on a 7n7 don't ya think . The difference is we don't start on the weekends and from the pilots here I have taked to, they don't want to start on the weekends. Again....and I just don't know. Can the company junior bid the 18 day schedule?? Just curious.

 

[SpaceBall 1]

dude,

Long schedules? we have the 18 day schedule, that's the longest and is voluntary. it also pays 69k 1st year SIC pay

so if nobody bids the 18 days then you would have 90% on the 7/7 and 10% on the 15 day schedule.

plus, the aircraft I'm on has Sat. starts and Tue. starts. you guys don't work weekends? must be the only company in the world that doesn't work weekends.

you were saying??

Dude,

Yes, we work weekends. Be kindda hard not to on a 7n7 don't ya think . The difference is we don't start on the weekends and from the pilots here I have taked to, they don't want to start on the weekends. Again....and I just don't know. Can the company junior bid the 18 day schedule?? Just curious.

 

[SpaceBall 1]

On a side note........I hope everyone on here has a safe and very Merry Christmas and a Happy New YEAR!!!!!!!!
:beer:

 

[Jafo73]

Dude,
Can the company junior bid the 18 day schedule?? Just curious.

No, the 18 day is voluntary. Can only get Junior manned to the 15 day flex (and the only 10% of your seat in your fleet). Not all the fleets have weekend starts (I have a Tuesday start by the way and have had it since I was able to bid it), but I know someone who has a Sunday start and 3 kids and likes it (I think he actually bid for it). Like you said, different strokes for different folks.

Merry Christmas

 

[CE750Driver]

We are 7 n 7 across the board which is 182 days/year minus training and vacation. The big pay difference between you and us (which is what everyone looks at) is on the 18 day schedule. For me, that's a lot to work in a month. With the 18 day tour being capped at 7 days in a row, I suppose you do short times off?? Not flaming, I just don't know. Also, can it be junior manned if nobody bids it? I could work an 18 day schedule here (and many do) just with OT. Not for me though. All I hear is that is where all the new hires are going.

The 15 day schedule....for me would suck. I like knowing in advance when I am off and when I am on. Again..just what I hear.

Weekend starts....not for me and alot of pilots here. I a have a family with kids in school. Having my weekends desroyed by having to go to work is not a good QOL. Again...this is for my lifestyle before everyone gets their panties in a twist. However, many if not most of our pilots here would not want weekend start dates. I had some buddies here in the Bravo when it was Monday starts.....they were not happy. For the record we start Tues, Wed and Thurs. I know that the weekend starts are not all that you have, but if someone is not "senior" enough to hold a non-weekend start....are they not being forced onto that schedule??

UMM. On the 7n7 at year 10, CS makes 103000. At NJA year 10, 119245 plus about 12000 in OT/Holiday pay. 131,245 compared to 103,000 is not a small pay difference. So it is not just the 18 day schedules that pay a ton more. Also, you get 4 weeks of vacation at year 10 at NJA, plus 12 sick days. that equals ALOT less work than you do at Shares. I have never known anyone at NJA, in the last 5 years, that couldn't hold the 7n7, even new hires. And I have never known anybody junior manned to the 18 day. Ever.

So, again Space, where is this small difference in pay you are talking about?

 

[gunfyter]

SHHHHHH.....!!!

We work HARDER. Thats why we need another raise soon.

 

[1folinepilot]

The official Management response from CS

http://bringmemyfool.com/payraise.html

 

[SpaceBall 1]

UMM. On the 7n7 at year 10, CS makes 103000. At NJA year 10, 119245 plus about 12000 in OT/Holiday pay. 131,245 compared to 103,000 is not a small pay difference. So it is not just the 18 day schedules that pay a ton more. Also, you get 4 weeks of vacation at year 10 at NJA, plus 12 sick days. that equals ALOT less work than you do at Shares. I have never known anyone at NJA, in the last 5 years, that couldn't hold the 7n7, even new hires. And I have never known anybody junior manned to the 18 day. Ever.

So, again Space, where is this small difference in pay you are talking about?

Dude,

I never said anything about a "small" difference in pay. Don't twist my words....not cool. What I did say is that everyone looks at the BIG pay difference with the NJ 18 day schedule compared to ours. Is there a difference in the 7n7...of course, but I never said it was little. Depending on how much OT you work will move the bottom line. Everyones is different. Holiday pay...yeah we don't have it, but we rotate schedules so if you work it one year, you have it off the next. I like that better. I would rather be home on the holidays instead of at work. Different strokes for different folks.

As far as holding the 7n7, that was the last 5 years as you have said. I had a buddy just interview at NJ last week and he was told that nobody knows how this new scheduling bid/policy is going to shake out. He is thinking about not going because of getting stuck on the 18 day, or delay to see what happens.

Vacation....yeah we need more and I believe that we will get it. We only have less than a handfull of people that have been here 10 years. Not much of an argument there. Sick time...what happens if you miss more than 12 days. Not flaming....just curious. I know a pilot here that has missed 18 days so far in 2007. Not one day of pay missed or one day asked to make up. If you're sick they don't want you to come to work.

Bottom line....if I were at year 10 right now, I would be pulling in around $123,373 with out even trying. That is just 2 OT days/month. If I did 3 OT days/month $133,560 at year 10. If I worked 4 OT days/month (which would be your 18 day) that is $143,747 at 10 years.

 

[x402]

Dude,

I never said anything about a "small" difference in pay. Don't twist my words....not cool. What I did say is that everyone looks at the BIG pay difference with the NJ 18 day schedule compared to ours. Is there a difference in the 7n7...of course, but I never said it was little. Depending on how much OT you work will move the bottom line. Everyones is different. Holiday pay...yeah we don't have it, but we rotate schedules so if you work it one year, you have it off the next. I like that better. I would rather be home on the holidays instead of at work. Different strokes for different folks.

As far as holding the 7n7, that was the last 5 years as you have said. I had a buddy just interview at NJ last week and he was told that nobody knows how this new scheduling bid/policy is going to shake out. He is thinking about not going because of getting stuck on the 18 day, or delay to see what happens.

Vacation....yeah we need more and I believe that we will get it. We only have less than a handfull of people that have been here 10 years. Not much of an argument there. Sick time...what happens if you miss more than 12 days. Not flaming....just curious. I know a pilot here that has missed 18 days so far in 2007. Not one day of pay missed or one day asked to make up. If you're sick they don't want you to come to work.

Bottom line....if I were at year 10 right now, I would be pulling in around $123,373 with out even trying. That is just 2 OT days/month. If I did 3 OT days/month $133,560 at year 10. If I worked 4 OT days/month (which would be your 18 day) that is $143,747 at 10 years.

I'm going to give your friend the benefit of the doubt and assume he didn't understand what was presented. But, who knows what the Company tells new hires these days, I'm sure it wasn't the Union briefing that passed that bad info.
FACT
7/7 is the default schedule, he will get it as soon as he gets out of training.
The 18 day is a bid only schedule, not assignable. The only wild card is the 15 day reserve. It needs to be staffed at 10% per fleet and due to the premium pay people are betting it will go senior and not have to be junior assigned.

 

[CA1900]

I had a buddy just interview at NJ last week ... He is thinking about not going because of getting stuck on the 18 day, or delay to see what happens.

Just so your buddy knows, he cannot get stuck on the 18-day schedule. It's purely voluntary. Newhires are on an 18-day training schedule, but they're off it as soon as IOE is done (or after 120 if there's some delay in finishing IOE).

Nobody is junior-manned onto the 18-day, which is a change from the previous contract. (Everybody's still learning their way around the new agreement, I guess. )

 

[gunfyter]

Bottom line....if I were at year 10 right now, I would be pulling in around $123,373 with out even trying. That is just 2 OT days/month. If I did 3 OT days/month $133,560 at year 10. If I worked 4 OT days/month (which would be your 18 day) that is $143,747 at 10 years.

If i did 4 overtime days a month on year 10 7&7 base that is $168K. Plus all the overtime and holiday pay would likely make it close to 190K.

But let me correct your math error. 4 OT days a month on 7&7 is not 18 days a month... its 19.2 days a month.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Dude,

I never said anything about a "small" difference in pay. Don't twist my words....not cool. What I did say is that everyone looks at the BIG pay difference with the NJ 18 day schedule compared to ours. Is there a difference in the 7n7...of course, but I never said it was little.

No, you said, "The big pay difference between you and us (which is what everyone looks at) is on the 18 day schedule." There is a "big" pay difference between our 7&7s, as well as the 18-day.

As far as holding the 7n7, that was the last 5 years as you have said. I had a buddy just interview at NJ last week and he was told that nobody knows how this new scheduling bid/policy is going to shake out. He is thinking about not going because of getting stuck on the 18 day, or delay to see what happens.

Your buddy is a fool then.

Sick time...what happens if you miss more than 12 days. Not flaming....just curious. I know a pilot here that has missed 18 days so far in 2007. Not one day of pay missed or one day asked to make up. If you're sick they don't want you to come to work.

We have a sick/PTO bank. If you're sick 18 days every year, you will have a problem, and probably shouldn't be flying at all. Otherwise the days go into the sick/PTO bank. If you have 20 days banked, you can take all 20.

Bottom line....if I were at year 10 right now, I would be pulling in around $123,373 with out even trying. That is just 2 OT days/month. If I did 3 OT days/month $133,560 at year 10. If I worked 4 OT days/month (which would be your 18 day) that is $143,747 at 10 years.

You ought to look at a calendar sometime. On a 7&7, months will range from 14 to 17 workdays. You could not work 4 OT days every month and equal our 18-day on an annual basis.

 

[ultrarunner]

I'm curious why anyone at CS thinks anyone else in the industry gives a $hit what their opinion is? Or is this just posturing on the part of CS?

 

[Stinkbug]

well that was a random comment. It is a public forum after all

I'm curious why anyone at CS thinks anyone else in the industry gives a $hit what their opinion is? Or is this just posturing on the part of CS?

 

[ultrarunner]

Oh, I know that. I'm just curious why CS decided to go into such an 'in-depth' comment in response to a question from the press. That's all.

It's not typical of a large company to make such comments and provides no benefit.

 

[Stinkbug]

ok no problem but keep in mind the company comments were posted internally to keep the employees informed and squelch rumors. Then an employee ran to this forum and immediately posted it...

Oh, I know that. I'm just curious why CS decided to go into such an 'in-depth' comment in response to a question from the press. That's all.

It's not typical of a large company to make such comments and provides no benefit.

 

[ultrarunner]

ya know, after I read it a second time, I realized it was an internal comm.

thanks

 

[Captainzero1]

Last I checked, NJA was making money, Has Shares ever made any money?

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

SpaceBall 1 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you start one more post by calling someone "dude" I an going to officially change your user name to Jeff Spicoli

Here's a visual for you: http://tokyojim.com/g/spicoli.jpg

 

[SpaceBall 1]

DUDE Just joking with ya'all. Gezz simmer down Francis! The orginal point is, this was an internal comm and should not have been posted on this site. Thats all.

Ultra Grump....As far as working the 4days of OT to equal 18 days a month. I know pilots here that have been doing that along time, so your argument holds no water with me. May be your retaining a bit of water....that could be the grumpy part!?!? Just kidding with you.:laugh:

CE-750 threw the OT and Holiday pay in for the 7&7 and that is why I post OT for our 7&7. Trying to keep it an apples to apples comparsion. I always come in one day early. Why, because it is usually a 4pm or so flight out in the afternoon. I have time for luch with the wife and then drive easily to the airport. For me, it is a pain in the arse airlining out on day one. Get up at 4am to plow through traffic to make a 0830 airline flight. No thanks, I'll take the cash.

Its not as bad here as what some are trying to say. I just want our pilots to use their God given brain. Think about things and make their own decision and not based it soley upon everyone else is telling them.

Just getting home for the Holidays today. Y'all fly safe, drive safe and have a great Christmas and happy New Years!

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

DUDE Just joking with ya'all.

I'm just messin' with you too, but...it's y'all not ya'all you yankee.

 

[kman]

been at nja for two and half years have not worked one holiday except mem. day.

The only people I know on a weekend start have it for a reason, just pref, traffic, more likely to just airline for whatever reason they get it because they bid it.

Just wondering for the senior guys at cs, would it be possible to get the holidays off ever year until u retire? Just a thought.

 

[Hawker dude]

DUDE Just joking with ya'all. Gezz simmer down Francis! The orginal point is, this was an internal comm and should not have been posted on this site. Thats all.

Ultra Grump....As far as working the 4days of OT to equal 18 days a month. I know pilots here that have been doing that along time, so your argument holds no water with me. May be your retaining a bit of water....that could be the grumpy part!?!? Just kidding with you.:laugh:

CE-750 threw the OT and Holiday pay in for the 7&7 and that is why I post OT for our 7&7. Trying to keep it an apples to apples comparsion. I always come in one day early. Why, because it is usually a 4pm or so flight out in the afternoon. I have time for luch with the wife and then drive easily to the airport. For me, it is a pain in the arse airlining out on day one. Get up at 4am to plow through traffic to make a 0830 airline flight. No thanks, I'll take the cash.

Its not as bad here as what some are trying to say. I just want our pilots to use their God given brain. Think about things and make their own decision and not based it soley upon everyone else is telling them.

Just getting home for the Holidays today. Y'all fly safe, drive safe and have a great Christmas and happy New Years!

Dude,

you keep talking about all the time you spend with your family but then again you're on this board every day?

And no matter what you say NJA has a better QOL and better pay. if you can't except it than you're just in denial or real jealous.

 

[CE750Driver]

Dude,

Bottom line....if I were at year 10 right now, I would be pulling in around $123,373 with out even trying. That is just 2 OT days/month. If I did 3 OT days/month $133,560 at year 10. If I worked 4 OT days/month (which would be your 18 day) that is $143,747 at 10 years.

I was assuming no extended days. Bottom line year 10 with 3 OT days a month, 165,000. 4 = 176,300. This is a big difference also.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Ultra Grump....As far as working the 4days of OT to equal 18 days a month. I know pilots here that have been doing that along time, so your argument holds no water with me.

It doesn't hold water with you because you've got some cracks in your logic and math vessel.

So in a month where you are working 17 days on the 7&7, if you work 4 OT days, that would be 21 days of work. Another way of looking at it is as gunfyter said. 18-day = 216 workdays. 7&7 = 182 workdays. 4 OT days/month = 48 days. 182 + 48 = 230. 216 - 230 = 14 extra days per year. Or 230/12 = 19.17 days/month, not 18.

Let's take your example for a minute: "If I worked 4 OT days/month (which would be your 18 day) that is $143,747 at 10 years."

If a 10-yr NJA captain were on the 18-day, and worked 14 extended days a year to equal your 7&7 OT guy for the year, he'd make an additional $14,104, added to his base salary of $145,072 would make it $159,176 without after midnights, holidays, or overtime. You'd still be $15k in the hole. BTW, do you get after midnight, holiday, or overtime pay?

Or, an NJA 10-yr captain on 7&7 does the same as you, and does 4 extended days a month (not contractually allowed, but for the sake of argument) would make $166,431.

Holding water for you now?

 

[RCA]

Wow you guys have offically turned this into the regional section.

 

[CA1900]

Nah, nobody's called anybody else a scab yet.

 

[Stinkbug]

Logic and math vessel....I love it Have to remember that one. Anyone who would argue that you guys don't have a better total package now is certainly in denial. There's always room for improvement at CS but as I said before I do think they're trying...things have only gotten better from the day I came on board...

It doesn't hold water with you because you've got some cracks in your logic and math vessel.

So in a month where you are working 17 days on the 7&7, if you work 4 OT days, that would be 21 days of work. Another way of looking at it is as gunfyter said. 18-day = 216 workdays. 7&7 = 182 workdays. 4 OT days/month = 48 days. 182 + 48 = 230. 216 - 230 = 14 extra days per year. Or 230/12 = 19.17 days/month, not 18.

Let's take your example for a minute: "If I worked 4 OT days/month (which would be your 18 day) that is $143,747 at 10 years."

If a 10-yr NJA captain were on the 18-day, and worked 14 extended days a year to equal your 7&7 OT guy for the year, he'd make an additional $14,104, added to his base salary of $145,072 would make it $159,176 without after midnights, holidays, or overtime. You'd still be $15k in the hole. BTW, do you get after midnight, holiday, or overtime pay?

Or, an NJA 10-yr captain on 7&7 does the same as you, and does 4 extended days a month (not contractually allowed, but for the sake of argument) would make $166,431.

Holding water for you now?