The CS response to NJ ammended contract

[Stinkbug]

No company will ever GIVE anything.
quote]

Well they did give us a nice raise after you guys got your new contract a couple years ago. And they recently gave us a nice improvement to our 401k, and overtime rules. Not trying to be argumentative; just pointing out that I think they have been making an effort to keep things going in a positive direction.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Read a little up on labor unions, good stuff :beer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_unions_in_the_United_States

I thought that this link was interesting. Thanx!


American unions remain an important political factor, both through mobilization of their own memberships and through coalitions with like-minded activist organizations around issues such as immigrant rights, trade policy, health care, and living wage campaigns. Unions allege that employer opposition (including running anti-union campaigns using union avoidance consultants) contributed to this decline in membership. Unions have responded by using their political power to amend United States labor law to restrict or eliminate the requirement for a vote on the issue of union representation, instead relying on card check recognition.

Labor unions in the past have been infiltrated by members of organized crime, such as the Mafia. Organized crime had been active in some Teamster locals, particularly in the garment industry in New York City, as early as the 1920s. Labor racketeers made inroads in other cities, such as Chicago, Cleveland, Kansas City, and Detroit, in the 1930s. Jimmy Hoffa and other Teamster leaders made strategic alliances with organized crime, in deals that benefited both the Mafia and its associates, who obtained sweetheart contracts, and the union leaders, who received kickbacks and other forms of assistance. Jimmy Hoffa would later mysteriously disappear. Hoffa's son, James P. Hoffa, is the current president of the Teamsters. For more information, refer to Teamsters: Organized crime's influence.


Here is a better link:

www.unionfacts.com

 

[fischman]

I thought that this link was interesting. Thanx!


American unions remain an important political factor, both through mobilization of their own memberships and through coalitions with like-minded activist organizations around issues such as immigrant rights, trade policy, health care, and living wage campaigns. Unions allege that employer opposition (including running anti-union campaigns using union avoidance consultants) contributed to this decline in membership. Unions have responded by using their political power to amend United States labor law to restrict or eliminate the requirement for a vote on the issue of union representation, instead relying on card check recognition.

Labor unions in the past have been infiltrated by members of organized crime, such as the Mafia. Organized crime had been active in some Teamster locals, particularly in the garment industry in New York City, as early as the 1920s. Labor racketeers made inroads in other cities, such as Chicago, Cleveland, Kansas City, and Detroit, in the 1930s. Jimmy Hoffa and other Teamster leaders made strategic alliances with organized crime, in deals that benefited both the Mafia and its associates, who obtained sweetheart contracts, and the union leaders, who received kickbacks and other forms of assistance. Jimmy Hoffa would later mysteriously disappear. Hoffa's son, James P. Hoffa, is the current president of the Teamsters. For more information, refer to Teamsters: Organized crime's influence.


Here is a better link:

[URL="http://www.unionfacts.com"]www.unionfacts.com[/URL]

Seriously. Give it up. You look desperate now, and you are completely off topic.

Now back to CS...

 

[realityman]

Hey B19, just wondering (Enron), are you saying (Worldcom) that there are no criminals (Tyco) in management?

Why don't you present a comparison of the last decade of which side of the equation (management or labor unions) have had more criminal accusations and convictions.

Your history lesson, with absolutely nothing current in it, is interesting but irrelevant. You seem a bit desperate.

I'm sorry, what was this thread about again?

 

[B19 Flyer]

Seriously. Give it up. You look desperate now, and you are completely off topic.

Now back to CS...

No I'm not off topic. NJA Bound gave us all a link to read and I just posted the text within the link. He wanted us to read it, all I did was make easier. Why is that off topic?

 

[learflyer]

Spaceball,

Just curious, what kind of schedule do you guys fly at CS? Not flame bait. .

They fly a 1 on 7 off schedule. Come on, Rook.

 

[gunfyter]

Labor unions in the past have been infiltrated by members of organized crime, such as the Mafia.

This is Blaming the VICTIM. Like blaming the woman who is raped.

Workers targeted by criminals who infiltrate the organization designed to protect them... Is like MAFIA infiltration of politicians and Police departments. Shall we now abolish government and disband the Police department?

Use your head 19. And read Adam Smith Wealth of Nations sections on the Wages of Labor and Stock.

You'll soon see why pilot wages are too low.

 

[fischman]

No I'm not off topic. NJA Bound gave us all a link to read and I just posted the text within the link. He wanted us to read it, all I did was make easier. Why is that off topic?

BECAUSE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT CS GETTING A RAISE!! OPEN YOUR FREAKING EYES MAN!!!!!

And you are looking desperate. Time to throttle back.

 

[blueridge71]

Now, I understand NJ new pay may not be something CS management cares about but, they will. Give it time.

I agree. If not now, then when pilots start taking their CS type ratings and experience and going to NJA. There is already an attrition problem at CS. Anyone have any doubts on how this will affect it? Not to mention the union drive.

 

[Hawker dude]

Hey Rotello....all the pilots were waiting for a response, which management did not have to give. And once we get a response...you go post it on a public board?!!? WTF! Next time we probably won't hear jack squat. You could have tried to paraphrase it a bit. Most pilots I have talked to don't want to do what is necessary to get the NJA pay. Such as....long schedules....weekend starts. I don't. Could it be better...sure, but it ain't that bad.

dude,

Long schedules? we have the 18 day schedule, that's the longest and is voluntary. it also pays 69k 1st year SIC pay

so if nobody bids the 18 days then you would have 90% on the 7/7 and 10% on the 15 day schedule.

plus, the aircraft I'm on has Sat. starts and Tue. starts. you guys don't work weekends? must be the only company in the world that doesn't work weekends.

you were saying??

 

[SpaceBall 1]

Spaceball,

Just curious, what kind of schedule do you guys fly at CS? Not flame bait. I'm just wondering what kind of schedule you're on since you said we work 'long schedules' here at NJA.

For the record, as is commonly known, the most popular schedule is the 7/7. So that's 7 days on.

The 18-day schedule is capped at 7-day tour lengths too, with one exception per every four months that they can extend a tour to 8 days. But only one tour and only once in a four month period. And it's not mandatory. Just a possibility.

On the 15-day schedule the longest tour length is 5 days (but I think with the possibility of only 3 off afterwards). But again, with a maximum of 15 days worked each month.

On the 7/7 we work 182 days/year (minus training events and vacations, so really a lot less). Pretty similar to that on the 15 day schedule. On the 18 day sched it's 216/year (minus training and vacations).

So seriously wondering, how much less do you work than us that our schedules are 'long' to you?

Also want to clarify that we do have weekend starts. But we also have plenty of weekday starts. There are a surprising number of pilots here that prefer a weekend start, so the odds are really good that if you want a weekday start you can get it. Just mentioning it because you make it sound like weekend starts are all we have and/or are forced onto them.

We are 7 n 7 across the board which is 182 days/year minus training and vacation. The big pay difference between you and us (which is what everyone looks at) is on the 18 day schedule. For me, thats alot to work in a month. With the 18 day tour being capped at 7 days in a row, I suppose you do short times off?? Not flaming, I just don't know. Also, can it be junior manned if nobody bids it? I could work an 18 day schedule here (and many do) just with OT. Not for me though. All I hear is that is where all the new hires are going.

The 15 day schedule....for me would suck. I like knowing in advance when I am off and when I am on. Again..just what I hear.

Weekend starts....not for me and alot of pilots here. I a have a family with kids in school. Having my weekends desroyed by having to go to work is not a good QOL. Again...this is for my lifestyle before everyone gets their panties in a twist. However, many if not most of our pilots here would not want weekend start dates. I had some buddies here in the Bravo when it was Monday starts.....they were not happy. For the record we start Tues, Wed and Thurs. I know that the weekend starts are not all that you have, but if someone is not "senior" enough to hold a non-weekend start....are they not being forced onto that schedule??

 

[SpaceBall 1]

Please keep in mind that:

1. I merely posted what will be printed in AIN next week. Not like I gave away the recipe for the secret sauce.

2. I made no comments WRT my feelings on the matter.

But since you sorta asked, frankly, the response scares the cr*p out of me on a number of levels, not the least of which is the part about not making decisions based on our competitions actions, as mentioned by someone else. This is the first truely scary thing I've seen put out by CS in all my time there (and it's quite a bit of time, BTW). The head in the sand attitude put forth in that message is freakin me out, not to mention the implied message that if AIN hadn't asked, they wouldn't have bothered to say anything. Seems very much unlike the CS I have come to know and love. And in all honestly, I really do love it.

Rotello

Dude, I don't think the entire letter will be posted in AIN. Just the quoted parts. If thats all you would have posted....fine. As far as basing decisions on other companies...should we go buy Challenger 300's since flex is getting them or maybe we need Gulfstreams, which I really wouldn't mind Besides, I have on good authority that an e-mail was going to be sent to the pilot group anyway. Nothing to be scared about.

 

[SpaceBall 1]

dude,

Long schedules? we have the 18 day schedule, that's the longest and is voluntary. it also pays 69k 1st year SIC pay

so if nobody bids the 18 days then you would have 90% on the 7/7 and 10% on the 15 day schedule.

plus, the aircraft I'm on has Sat. starts and Tue. starts. you guys don't work weekends? must be the only company in the world that doesn't work weekends.

you were saying??

Dude,

Yes, we work weekends. Be kindda hard not too on a 7n7 don't ya think . The difference is we don't start on the weekends and from the pilots here I have taked to, they don't want to start on the weekends. Again....and I just don't know. Can the company junior bid the 18 day schedule?? Just curious.

 

[SpaceBall 1]

dude,

Long schedules? we have the 18 day schedule, that's the longest and is voluntary. it also pays 69k 1st year SIC pay

so if nobody bids the 18 days then you would have 90% on the 7/7 and 10% on the 15 day schedule.

plus, the aircraft I'm on has Sat. starts and Tue. starts. you guys don't work weekends? must be the only company in the world that doesn't work weekends.

you were saying??

Dude,

Yes, we work weekends. Be kindda hard not to on a 7n7 don't ya think . The difference is we don't start on the weekends and from the pilots here I have taked to, they don't want to start on the weekends. Again....and I just don't know. Can the company junior bid the 18 day schedule?? Just curious.

 

[SpaceBall 1]

On a side note........I hope everyone on here has a safe and very Merry Christmas and a Happy New YEAR!!!!!!!!
:beer:

 

[Jafo73]

Dude,
Can the company junior bid the 18 day schedule?? Just curious.

No, the 18 day is voluntary. Can only get Junior manned to the 15 day flex (and the only 10% of your seat in your fleet). Not all the fleets have weekend starts (I have a Tuesday start by the way and have had it since I was able to bid it), but I know someone who has a Sunday start and 3 kids and likes it (I think he actually bid for it). Like you said, different strokes for different folks.

Merry Christmas

 

[CE750Driver]

We are 7 n 7 across the board which is 182 days/year minus training and vacation. The big pay difference between you and us (which is what everyone looks at) is on the 18 day schedule. For me, that's a lot to work in a month. With the 18 day tour being capped at 7 days in a row, I suppose you do short times off?? Not flaming, I just don't know. Also, can it be junior manned if nobody bids it? I could work an 18 day schedule here (and many do) just with OT. Not for me though. All I hear is that is where all the new hires are going.

The 15 day schedule....for me would suck. I like knowing in advance when I am off and when I am on. Again..just what I hear.

Weekend starts....not for me and alot of pilots here. I a have a family with kids in school. Having my weekends desroyed by having to go to work is not a good QOL. Again...this is for my lifestyle before everyone gets their panties in a twist. However, many if not most of our pilots here would not want weekend start dates. I had some buddies here in the Bravo when it was Monday starts.....they were not happy. For the record we start Tues, Wed and Thurs. I know that the weekend starts are not all that you have, but if someone is not "senior" enough to hold a non-weekend start....are they not being forced onto that schedule??

UMM. On the 7n7 at year 10, CS makes 103000. At NJA year 10, 119245 plus about 12000 in OT/Holiday pay. 131,245 compared to 103,000 is not a small pay difference. So it is not just the 18 day schedules that pay a ton more. Also, you get 4 weeks of vacation at year 10 at NJA, plus 12 sick days. that equals ALOT less work than you do at Shares. I have never known anyone at NJA, in the last 5 years, that couldn't hold the 7n7, even new hires. And I have never known anybody junior manned to the 18 day. Ever.

So, again Space, where is this small difference in pay you are talking about?

 

[gunfyter]

SHHHHHH.....!!!

We work HARDER. Thats why we need another raise soon.

 

[1folinepilot]

The official Management response from CS

http://bringmemyfool.com/payraise.html

 

[SpaceBall 1]

UMM. On the 7n7 at year 10, CS makes 103000. At NJA year 10, 119245 plus about 12000 in OT/Holiday pay. 131,245 compared to 103,000 is not a small pay difference. So it is not just the 18 day schedules that pay a ton more. Also, you get 4 weeks of vacation at year 10 at NJA, plus 12 sick days. that equals ALOT less work than you do at Shares. I have never known anyone at NJA, in the last 5 years, that couldn't hold the 7n7, even new hires. And I have never known anybody junior manned to the 18 day. Ever.

So, again Space, where is this small difference in pay you are talking about?

Dude,

I never said anything about a "small" difference in pay. Don't twist my words....not cool. What I did say is that everyone looks at the BIG pay difference with the NJ 18 day schedule compared to ours. Is there a difference in the 7n7...of course, but I never said it was little. Depending on how much OT you work will move the bottom line. Everyones is different. Holiday pay...yeah we don't have it, but we rotate schedules so if you work it one year, you have it off the next. I like that better. I would rather be home on the holidays instead of at work. Different strokes for different folks.

As far as holding the 7n7, that was the last 5 years as you have said. I had a buddy just interview at NJ last week and he was told that nobody knows how this new scheduling bid/policy is going to shake out. He is thinking about not going because of getting stuck on the 18 day, or delay to see what happens.

Vacation....yeah we need more and I believe that we will get it. We only have less than a handfull of people that have been here 10 years. Not much of an argument there. Sick time...what happens if you miss more than 12 days. Not flaming....just curious. I know a pilot here that has missed 18 days so far in 2007. Not one day of pay missed or one day asked to make up. If you're sick they don't want you to come to work.

Bottom line....if I were at year 10 right now, I would be pulling in around $123,373 with out even trying. That is just 2 OT days/month. If I did 3 OT days/month $133,560 at year 10. If I worked 4 OT days/month (which would be your 18 day) that is $143,747 at 10 years.