The Costa Citationair

[V1 Rotate]

Has anyone noticed that Flex Jet Pilots (NON UNION) get to keep there jobs and CA Pilots (Unionized) Don't? Does anyone see the CULTure that KR is trying to build. Hes growing his company while at the same time breaking the union down and eventually eliminating it!!!

Did anyone notice how the nonunion pilots at Flexjet and the rest of the company have managed to prosper (and now grow) despite all else that is going on in the industry? Whether you're pro-union or not, it just goes to show that a company and it's employees can prosper and catch the attention of the competition and (probably) 100's of investors who want a piece of the action. Skywest has been doing for years in the regional world.

 

[doh]

But Skywest has S*** compensation just like every regional.

 

[Newkem]

1108 would ostensibly represent both groups in making a deal for the CA check airmen to fly with the FO line pilots. Will 1108 now sign an LOA allowing line pilots to fly with ATCO pilots, having won arbitration to avoid just that, since the CA guys won't be employees? Will they negotiate contract day rate for the CA guys providing training? If they participate in this would they ever have any hope of organizing any other group, having cannibilized their newest chapter to protect their home group? How will the FO guys like flying with contractors getting paid probably twice as much as them during the integration, knowing that 1108 negotiated both pay scales?

And say what you want about not needing experience, but this is high risk. Bringing in a new program usually means training a core of a few check airmen, bringing in the first three or four planes, then growing at a pace that allows captains to build experience while the fleet grows. By the time the fleet approaches 19 planes, that's over a year and there are a number of experienced pilots to fly with the newbies coming in. Not to mention the ground experience with the plane's capabilities and maintenance needs. Bring in a whole fleet, even over a 6-8 month period, and you're going to have a bunch of crews with little type experience, being supported by Ops and Mx teams with little experience. Unless there's a long-term contract with a significant number of CA captains, this is a recipe for trouble.

This isn't just about learning new EPs, performance numbers and the box and passing a type ride, which any experienced pilot will be able to do just fine. This management team doesn't exactly have the greatest track record on managing risk well. All FO pilots have been here long enough to remember the cowboy days during the first fractional growth spurt. Anyone think the company's been sliding back that way? The ol' seat of the pants approach, thinking everything will work out just fine, will put crews and pax at risk

My condolences to the CA folks if this happens. I hope that, if it does, you hang together and negotiate an extortionary contract rate to come over and provide the seed experience for the newest FO 'value' fleet. And for those predicting that owners exit the program, I think you're partially right. There will be a number who never did and still won't want to be a customer of the 'value' player in the industry. But I bet there'll be a sweet deal, including reduced or no redemption fee, to trade over to a 'luxury' Flex contract - which has the dual benefit for KR of having a higher margin as a share sale, and bringing business over to the non-union side of the house.

Well said! Good points. I dont understand how a CA check airman can train / check pilots from another 135 certificate unless they attend their company indoc and become familiar with their company specific documents, ops specs, standard practices et.al.

FAA will have a field day with this arrangement.

 

[Newkem]

As for safety, I would be more concerned about the pilot losing his job, not so much concerned about the pilot with a new type rating.

So very true. Presumably as Options takes "Ownership" of Citation which will happen immediately, so too will they take "Ownership" of all the liabilities that go with it.

Can there be any greater demand placed on the professionalism of Citation crews than this quagmire? I wish them all the best - thoughts out to them and their families in this difficult time.

 

[shanes123]

Did anyone notice how the nonunion pilots at Flexjet and the rest of the company have managed to prosper (and now grow) despite all else that is going on in the industry? Whether you're pro-union or not, it just goes to show that a company and it's employees can prosper and catch the attention of the competition and (probably) 100's of investors who want a piece of the action. Skywest has been doing for years in the regional world.

Good luck with that Attitude..your the type of employee that KR LOVES..You will be a management stooge in no time..

 

[skyismyoffice]

What happens if Ricci goes away and another Sherringa or Sanjay take over and start running the company from a bean counters point of view?

What amazes me is that you all think the Pilots are pissed the union.

We know that the union wants us to be paid more money and Ricci does not.
It is that simple.

Why would the FO pilots turn their backs on those who want them to earn NJ wages and throw their support to those who want them to earn Mesa wages?

Not saying I want a decertification vote or believe its a good idea- I just think thats part of the plan.

 

[BlueNose]

Well said! Good points. I dont understand how a CA check airman can train / check pilots from another 135 certificate unless they attend their company indoc and become familiar with their company specific documents, ops specs, standard practices et.al.

FAA will have a field day with this arrangement.

It can be done with POI approval if it's under the same FAR Part, as long as the operating programs are compatible, especially for start-up programs. FO would probably just adopt most of CA's SOPs and training program to start, to minimize differences and make it easier. Below is what the FAA 8900.1 handbook says. The FAA won't be the stumbling block here, but 1108 could block the deal. That's why KR's trying to paint them into a corner by going to the FO pilots directly. Gives them a Sophie's choice dilemma, and possibly puts them at risk of a DFR suit either way they choose.

3-1430 APPROVAL OF A CHECK AIRMAN FOR MULTIPLE OPERATORS. This paragraph provides a standard method for approving a check airman to serve multiple operators. The approval of a check airman to serve more than one operator is limited to those cases in which the operator?s aircraft, aircraft operating manuals, procedures, and checklists are compatible in the judgment of the overseeing inspector(s). Provision for multiple check airman approvals may be made for part 135 single-pilot operators, part 135 single-PIC operators, and for part 121 and part 135 operators with programs that are compatible, in the judgment of the respective operator?s POI. An operator?s POI may also approve a check airman to serve multiple part 121 or part 135 operators on a temporary basis, when a startup operation is initiated or when new equipment is being introduced. Other multiple approvals may be made with the concurrence of the regional Flight Standards division when justified.

 

[Newkem]

And the orchestra plays on...

My condolences to CS crews.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHsx1cvACkY

Classic.

The Titanic is sinking, but the deck chairs are being rearranged and the orchestra continues to play.

 

[V1 Rotate]

Good luck with that Attitude..your the type of employee that KR LOVES..You will be a management stooge in no time..

I don't have an attitude problem. Just ask anyone I've flown with over the past 15 years and I'm sure they'd tell you otherwise. As far as being a management stooge, that would be laughable to anyone who knows me as well. I just get tired of being told that if I'm not in a union then I'm not not worthy to be in the profession. My post was to simply point out that a union isn't always required for a company and it's employees to prosper. I've paid my share of union dues at previous jobs and I've always said that a "union is needed where it's needed." So far, I'm 0-2 with a union job and 1-0 without. If things start going downhill here, then yeah, let's organize and fight it. I realize that Fight Info is a mostly pro-union forum and to speak up otherwise is calling down the thunder. Like your unwarranted personal attack on me.

 

[luckydog]

Bingo!

FLOPs will own non-union Flex...

FLOPs won't own anyone. DAC only owns FLOPS. DAC and "investors" will own Flexjet LLC.

 

[jetwash]

FLOPs won't own anyone. DAC only owns FLOPS. DAC and "investors" will own Flexjet LLC.

Take a look at Ricci's letter that someone posted and pay attention to how he is determined to take care of his loyal Flight Options "family" and to fulfill the promises he made to the Flight Options pilots who helped him get to where he is today.

Kenn hand picked many of the senior pilots at FO and middle managers who have been with him since his Corporate Wings days. I can't see him giving the Flex guys a better deal then his boys.

Plus if you knew how The DAC companies work together you would realize that the lines are blurred. Just ask some of the mechanics who are playing musical chairs with Flight Options, Nextant and Constant. You will then realize that we are not really different companies but just one big "family".

 

[Ludicrous Speed]

Speaking of the mechanics: Can’t count how many times these guys have had the rug pulled out from underneath them – during Shrinking and King Ricci’s reigns. Between the downsizing, management changes, company changes, location emphasis changes, whole shop’s closing, then opening, a/c scheduling rules, abandoned a/c scheduling rules – the list goes on and on. Those guys have been jerked around and hung out to dry every 6 to 8 months. Is that how ya treat ‘family’?

 

[BlueNose]

Take a look at Ricci's letter that someone posted and pay attention to how he is determined to take care of his loyal Flight Options "family" and to fulfill the promises he made to the Flight Options pilots who helped him get to where he is today.

Kenn hand picked many of the senior pilots at FO and middle managers who have been with him since his Corporate Wings days. I can't see him giving the Flex guys a better deal then his boys.

Plus if you knew how The DAC companies work together you would realize that the lines are blurred. Just ask some of the mechanics who are playing musical chairs with Flight Options, Nextant and Constant. You will then realize that we are not really different companies but just one big "family".

He's been so determined to take care of his family that he hasn't restored the 6% 401K match, even though every other DAC company has a match now. And doing this hurt every FO employee, not just the union he so dislikes. Think your cart blanche for crew meals makes up for the 6% (+ tax free) cut in your compensation?

CA folks, hope you get enough contract pay and severance to make up for the early exit from the market, but with Textron's change of heart it was eventually coming anyway. You're not missing anything by not joining the most dysfunctional 'family' in corporate aviation. Looks like hiring is finally picking up in the rest of the industry, too.

Flex pilots, welcome to la famiglia, you lucky, lucky baastads.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EI7p2p1QJI

 

[BlueNose]

Speaking of the mechanics: Can?t count how many times these guys have had the rug pulled out from underneath them ? during Shrinking and King Ricci?s reigns. Between the downsizing, management changes, company changes, location emphasis changes, whole shop?s closing, then opening, a/c scheduling rules, abandoned a/c scheduling rules ? the list goes on and on. Those guys have been jerked around and hung out to dry every 6 to 8 months. Is that how ya treat ?family??

And ask any of the old timers about the quarterly dispatch availabilty bonus offered during the first KR regime, which not only encouraged pencil whipping, but was a moving target that they could never quite catch. Almost made it this quarter, try again. Oh, it's 1% higher now. Thanks for playin'.

 

[Ludicrous Speed]

Sign the Petition? Naaww, I’ll see what the union lawyers work out. The list’s a who’s who of anti-union stiffs, at least three drunks, & a middle manager we call ‘Inlet Plug’. You signers ‘ve been played - I consort with a classier sort of cretin.

 

[jetwash]

He's been so determined to take care of his family that he hasn't restored the 6% 401K match, even though every other DAC company has a match now. And doing this hurt every FO employee, not just the union he so dislikes. Think your cart blanche for crew meals makes up for the 6% (+ tax free) cut in your compensation?

Flex pilots, welcome to 'la famiglia,' you lucky, lucky baastads

]

Don't forget there are ways you take care of your "family" members when they get out of line.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=LlQCW02Tbxc

 

[Newkem]

Deal or no deal?

What is the latest out there leakers? Is there a deal or no deal?

 

[shanes123]

I don't have an attitude problem. Just ask anyone I've flown with over the past 15 years and I'm sure they'd tell you otherwise. As far as being a management stooge, that would be laughable to anyone who knows me as well. I just get tired of being told that if I'm not in a union then I'm not not worthy to be in the profession. My post was to simply point out that a union isn't always required for a company and it's employees to prosper. I've paid my share of union dues at previous jobs and I've always said that a "union is needed where it's needed." So far, I'm 0-2 with a union job and 1-0 without. If things start going downhill here, then yeah, let's organize and fight it. I realize that Fight Info is a mostly pro-union forum and to speak up otherwise is calling down the thunder. Like your unwarranted personal attack on me.

I agree a 110% a union is not always needed. It is not needed when you have a management with moral integrity..that is far from the case here.. I am far from pro-union.. But this company needs a union like a car needs a steering wheel ...they are gonna walk all over you guys, strip you down to nothing all while telling you how good you have it to be working here..you will see..and you will learn you guys have no idea what your in for

 

[V1 Rotate]

I agree a 110% a union is not always needed. It is not needed when you have a management with moral integrity..that is far from the case here.. I am far from pro-union.. But this company needs a union like a car needs a steering wheel ...they are gonna walk all over you guys, strip you down to nothing all while telling you how good you have it to be working here..you will see..and you will learn you guys have no idea what your in for

I hope you're wrong but I'll take my chances without a union for now. I'll decide for sure where I stand when we find out what our pay/benefits package looks like in the coming weeks. From where I stand, it doesn't look like the union thing is working out too well at FO and CA. It wasn't all it was advertised to be at the last two regionals I worked at, either.

 

[OHGOON]

I hope you're wrong but I'll take my chances without a union for now. I'll decide for sure where I stand when we find out what our pay/benefits package looks like in the coming weeks. From where I stand, it doesn't look like the union thing is working out too well at FO and CA. It wasn't all it was advertised to be at the last two regionals I worked at, either.

Yes you're right, things did not work out too well at CA precisely because too many pilots decided like you to take their chances...by the time they woke up it was almost too late...in other words too little too late. It's amazing that this lesson just does not seem to sink in no matter how many times it plays out in the industry.

You do realize that DAC is doing all the screwing while you duck and watch, hoping it will pass you buy. You can't realistically believe that all will be fine as long as you smile and make cooing sounds towards your new master?

Off course since you are a Union expert from your Regional experiences you would "know" different...:erm::0