The Costa Citationair

[C680]

More than likely check air men to get the FO pilots done with IOE and up to speed after the school house.

Scary.

Just remember, Floptions has a history of eating their check airman and their young.

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...ts-check-airman-flight-options-mu-300-overrun

God speed to all involved.... gonna be an interesting 9 months.

 

[NJAowner]

So where did the NJA pilots flying the Phenoms and Global get their 1000s of hours in type before flying NJA owners? So where did the first CA pilots flying Xs and Sovereigns get all of their hours in type before flying CS owners?

 

[WheresRocky]

Sad.

This is part of it. It was part of a letter released from the DAC Chairman.


"The new development is that we have also been working on a transaction to acquire Citation Air, which announced in 2012 that it was exiting the fractional ownership market once its existing agreements expire. Because Citation Air is only 20% of the size of Flight Options, we are not planning to integrate operations. Instead, we will continue to wind down the operations of Citation Air over 9 months by gradually transferring 19 of its aircraft to our fleet, taking over 200 customers of Citation Air and giving us an additional 12,000 hours of annual flying. Because we will not be hiring Citation Air?s pilots or integrating seniority lists, the new aircraft and flying will allow us to bring as many as 85 of our furloughed pilots back to work as well as providing upgrade opportunities to many of our active pilots. The transaction could close as early as October 1st."

And the orchestra plays on...

My condolences to CS crews.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHsx1cvACkY

 

[skyismyoffice]

I think this is just Ricci playing games. If he gets the CA business- great, if not- so be it. It's all eventually going to work itself out regardless. In a couple years the owners will find somewhere to go no matter what happens.

The bigger picture is making IBT look bad! I don't see how the union comes out of this looking good? If they go with proposal they look bad for leaving the CA pilots out to dry. If they hold tight and insist in pilot integration they will be accused of holding back the growth of FLOPs, preventing upgrades and leaving the FLOPs furlowed pilots out to dry.

Like I said, in the end the CA business is going to spread itself out because of pissed off owners, referrals from other owners, etc. I thing the play here is to discredit the union.

 

[Rupert.]

. I thing the play here is to discredit the union.

The union does a good enough job of that on their own. They dont need KR's help.

 

[X-rated]

So where did the NJA pilots flying the Phenoms and Global get their 1000s of hours in type before flying NJA owners? So where did the first CA pilots flying Xs and Sovereigns get all of their hours in type before flying CS owners?

Exactly... This ain't rocket science even though many on here would like you to believe it is. If an experienced and proficient fractional pilot isn't safe coming directly out of training and can't become completely comfortable in a new type in less than 100 hours, something is seriously wrong. The difference here is the pilots will get IOE from experienced crews. Usually when a new fleet is introduced that isn't an option. While every pilot group thinks they are "special", every fractional pilot group does exactly the same job with equally qualified pilots. Don't buy the marketing hype when someone tells you otherwise.

 

[Fresh Air]

i think this is just ricci playing games. If he gets the ca business- great, if not- so be it. It's all eventually going to work itself out regardless. In a couple years the owners will find somewhere to go no matter what happens.

The bigger picture is making ibt look bad! I don't see how the union comes out of this looking good? If they go with proposal they look bad for leaving the ca pilots out to dry. If they hold tight and insist in pilot integration they will be accused of holding back the growth of flops, preventing upgrades and leaving the flops furlowed pilots out to dry.

Like i said, in the end the ca business is going to spread itself out because of pissed off owners, referrals from other owners, etc. I thing the play here is to discredit the union.

bingo.

 

[Smooth Cruz]

As for safety, I would be more concerned about the pilot losing his job, not so much concerned about the pilot with a new type rating.

 

[gunfyter]

Ya gotta love taking a checkride from a guy whose job you are taking ...

That should insure only the safest pilots in the world get through

 

[diggertwo]

Compare:
Flight Options

Preliminary 8/5/2013Eden Prairie, MN EMBRAER EMB-505 N327FLCEN13LA462Nonfatal
Probable Cause5/21/2005Augusta, GA Canadair CL600 N699CWATL05CA085Nonfatal
Probable Cause12/18/2004Cleveland, OH Raytheon Corporate Jets 400A N417CWNYC05CA035Nonfatal
Probable Cause11/29/2004Cleveland, OH Embraer EMB-135BJ N995CWIAD05CA019Nonfatal
Probable Cause7/12/2004Sarasota, FL Raytheon Corporate Jets Beechjet 400A N455CWENG04IA021IncidentFlight Options (DBA: Flight Options)
Probable Cause8/23/2003Wichita, KS Cessna 172P N55326CHI03LA280Nonfatal
Probable Cause5/1/2002Baltimore, MD Beech 400A N498CWIAD02FA047Nonfatal
Probable Cause2/10/2002Cleveland, OH Mitsubishi MU-300 N541CWNYC02FA059Nonfatal


CitationAir

Probable Cause 12/2/2011Ocoee, FL CESSNA 560XL N576CSERA12IA097Incident
Probable Cause 4/8/2011Abbeville, LA CESSNA 560XL N547CSCEN11IA286Incident
Probable Cause2/13/2010Eagle, CO CESSNA 680 N606CSCEN10LA204Nonfatal
​

 

[BlueNose]

1108 would ostensibly represent both groups in making a deal for the CA check airmen to fly with the FO line pilots. Will 1108 now sign an LOA allowing line pilots to fly with ATCO pilots, having won arbitration to avoid just that, since the CA guys won't be employees? Will they negotiate contract day rate for the CA guys providing training? If they participate in this would they ever have any hope of organizing any other group, having cannibilized their newest chapter to protect their home group? How will the FO guys like flying with contractors getting paid probably twice as much as them during the integration, knowing that 1108 negotiated both pay scales?

And say what you want about not needing experience, but this is high risk. Bringing in a new program usually means training a core of a few check airmen, bringing in the first three or four planes, then growing at a pace that allows captains to build experience while the fleet grows. By the time the fleet approaches 19 planes, that's over a year and there are a number of experienced pilots to fly with the newbies coming in. Not to mention the ground experience with the plane's capabilities and maintenance needs. Bring in a whole fleet, even over a 6-8 month period, and you're going to have a bunch of crews with little type experience, being supported by Ops and Mx teams with little experience. Unless there's a long-term contract with a significant number of CA captains, this is a recipe for trouble.

This isn't just about learning new EPs, performance numbers and the box and passing a type ride, which any experienced pilot will be able to do just fine. This management team doesn't exactly have the greatest track record on managing risk well. All FO pilots have been here long enough to remember the cowboy days during the first fractional growth spurt. Anyone think the company's been sliding back that way? The ol' seat of the pants approach, thinking everything will work out just fine, will put crews and pax at risk.

My condolences to the CA folks if this happens. I hope that, if it does, you hang together and negotiate an extortionary contract rate to come over and provide the seed experience for the newest FO 'value' fleet. And for those predicting that owners exit the program, I think you're partially right. There will be a number who never did and still won't want to be a customer of the 'value' player in the industry. But I bet there'll be a sweet deal, including reduced or no redemption fee, to trade over to a 'luxury' Flex contract - which has the dual benefit for KR of having a higher margin as a share sale, and bringing business over to the non-union side of the house.

 

[BlueNose]

Compare:

Flight Options​

Probable Cause8/23/2003Wichita, KS Cessna 172P N55326CHI03LA280Nonfatal
​

Not sure how you tag jet blast caused by a couple of third-party mx techs, at a retail mx shop in ICT to Options?

 

[shanes123]

Has anyone noticed that Flex Jet Pilots (NON UNION) get to keep there jobs and CA Pilots (Unionized) Don't? Does anyone see the CULTure that KR is trying to build. Hes growing his company while at the same time breaking the union down and eventually eliminating it!!!

 

[NJAowner]

Don't buy the marketing hype when someone tells you otherwise.

I don't buy it. But it seems like many on this board do.

Diggertwo-- I read those statistics a few way and not sure what conclusion you want us to draw" (1) FO has more incidents overall, or (2) CA has more incidents in the more immediate past. For the statistics to be more accurate we should also see NJA and Flex statistics as well as putting the rate of incident against aircraft or flight flow or some other relative measure.

 

[imacdog]

1. Disengage Ego.
2. Lets talk facts.

Those that can afford to fly privately do so after exercising due diligence. When a customer is told their contract will now be flown by pilots with zero time in said aircraft, new company, different management, different SOP's, etc, - I dont know, if it were me, I'd re-think the entire deal. After all, I'd have the resources to choose my private lift provider, and it certainly would not BY DEFAULT be a company that I had not previously chosen. Get it?

Has nothing to do with EGO, everything to do with what the truth IS.

Make sense?

This is gonna be fun to watch.

Calm down, they're just Citations.

 

[Newkem]

Don't buy the marketing hype when someone tells you otherwise.

I don't buy it. But it seems like many on this board do.

Diggertwo-- I read those statistics a few way and not sure what conclusion you want us to draw" (1) FO has more incidents overall, or (2) CA has more incidents in the more immediate past. For the statistics to be more accurate we should also see NJA and Flex statistics as well as putting the rate of incident against aircraft or flight flow or some other relative measure.

Nja owner, do the numerous overrun accidents concern you as the sophisticated consumer of private aviation that you presumably are? You have to be curious ad to what cultural characteristics may exist that could be a contributing factor.

 

[NJAowner]

Newkem -- I am NOT the one saying any one set of pilots is so superior to the rest. Quite frankly, all that I have seen appear to me to be about the same. In reading NTSB reports I did notice a NJA crew that forgot to close and lock the cabin door, ignored the annunciator and the door opened in flight. I also saw the one about the NJA crew that ran into the snow bank. And, while on an NJ flight I actually witnessed a NJA Falcon 2000 clip a snowbank with the end of the wing (they were taxiing in front of us), but did not find that incident or spend too much time looking for it. I also saw the report about a problem due to faulty maintenance by NJA. These incidents were all in the past few years, not a decade + ago. None of the frax are "perfect". I haven't looked at the database in years -- thanks for refreshing me.

 

[chainring]

Up till about 2006 (Sherringa) Options had around 1000 pilots and as many as 220 airplanes. A whole lot more operations in a 13 yr period than Shares has ever had so I would think you would find more incidents.

 

[skyismyoffice]

Has anyone noticed that Flex Jet Pilots (NON UNION) get to keep there jobs and CA Pilots (Unionized) Don't? Does anyone see the CULTure that KR is trying to build. Hes growing his company while at the same time breaking the union down and eventually eliminating it!!!

Bingo!

FLOPs will own non-union Flex and CA is out of business regardless of where the business goes. Something is going on at XO jet- maybe another buyout?, Delta private jets is imploding, what's going on at TMC? there is only gonna be 2 major frax left so who else is IBT 1108 going to attract? All Ricci has to do is blow up the existing pilot group by pitting furlowed pilots against flying line pilots. Look for a decertification vote soon...

 

[jetwash]

Bingo!
? All Ricci has to do is blow up the existing pilot group by pitting furlowed pilots against flying line pilots. Look for a decertification vote soon...

What happens if Ricci goes away and another Sherringa or Sanjay take over and start running the company from a bean counters point of view?

What amazes me is that you all think the Pilots are pissed the union.

We know that the union wants us to be paid more money and Ricci does not.
It is that simple.

Why would the FO pilots turn their backs on those who want them to earn NJ wages and throw their support to those who want them to earn Mesa wages?