The Comair strike, another perspective..

[skydiverdriver]

Mr Snow,
You are entitled to your opinion, but don't worry, I won't call you names for expressing it. Good luck to you sir.

 

[skydiverdriver]

Thanks rufus, I did vote no, just like you did.

Mr Sig,
I apologise if I was wrong with the two things I said about Delta pilots. I just wonder why you dont' try to answer some of the other things I talk about. I did not try to lie, I was just spreading rumors, which is almost as bad. Good luck to you, and I sincerely hope you don't get furloughed.

 

[1900laker]

Merry X-mas everyone,

I talked to my dad this morning (a senior DAL pilot), and mentioned some of the stuff I have been reading on this board. He put some things in perspective about hardtimes and the airlines. Here is what he explained regarding some of the comments made recently on this board and specifically in the COMAIR thread.


When he was hired by Delta in late 1973, about a three months later, he was informed that 400 pilots were to be furloughed or busted down to the ramp to be baggage handlers. It turned out to be 200, which put him 5 away from the bottom in Houston, barely clinging to a B727 panel seat. That is where he sat for 6 years. And he was still thankful to have a job. There were those that only made it back much later, after years of scrabbling to make ends meet. So when you call a guy at the end of a long career that started in such a fashion "greedy", it really strikes the wrong chord. Keep in mind that for the guys retiring soon, their retirement is based on the best 3 of their last 10 years. This affects the amount of money they will be receiving for the rest of their lives, not just a couple years till you move up to the next seat. These are also pilots who have spent decades in the industry, fighting alongside DALPA for better wages and working conditions which impact the entire industry.

There is no doubt that Mainline and Express carriers benefit from a Synergistic relationship with each other. But included in that is the often forgotten concept that business is business. Pilots are often so caught up in casting stones at one another for lack of support that they miss the bigger picture. COMAIR and ASA are competitors! It's true. Every mainline/express connection creates a microcosm like market economy. The whole Delta conglomerate competes with the rest of the market as a whole, but within the conglomerate it has pieces that are used to compete with one another, to keep the cost down for the mainline operation. So when COMAIR/ASA guys point fingers at each other, keep in mind you are still competitors of a sort within your Delta economy. Oh and I didn't forget Skywest or ACJet. They are your "competitors" also.

He also said you need two things going for you if you want to be an airline pilot:

1. A strong union
2. Good common sense, so you can balance out many of the socialist that are present in your strong union.

And finally, so many things are thrust upon the unions which are results of actions taken by the companies. Very often, the actions by the company are such (and maybe designed this way) that the result will be two union groups pitted against each other. Never forger that fact.

But hey, at the end of the day, even though we fight over all this gravy, lets first be thankful of the food we have to put it on.

Happy Holidays

 

[TurboS7]

Nice job. The thing about the unions is so true, but no matter what part of the fence you fall on you must be involved to provide the balance needed for all to prosper.

 

[FlyingSig]

Believe it or not, I'm actually enjoying this conversation. I suppose however Mr. Noname, that you subscribe to the same theory of posting as SDD, that is of spreading lies but calling them rumors. So let's take a look:

Actually, Skydiverdriver said just about exactly what one of Delta's former Chief Pilots told me, that DALPA reached too far with the last contract

Funny, isn't that exactly what Randy Rademaker said about the Comair contract? If I asked Mr. Osmundson his opinion should I take it as fact? Fact is Delta had negotiators too and the company signed off on the working agreement. If an employee contract would cause a company to loose money, then the management of that company should be held responsible by the BOD and the shareholders to change that. Fact is also that Fred Reid is also on record saying that the payrates were deserved.

If given the choice between rediculous pay rates ($275+ an hour on the smallest equipment DL operates @ 12 years - 737 Capt) or job security - I will take job security.

Here's where you start to cross that lie/viscious rumor line.... Let's see, a Delta 777 Captain currently makes $280.07/hr , yet you assert that the smallest category captain makes $275. That is a lie. A 737 Captian currently makes $161.08/hr. In 2005 at the end of the agreement, that 737 Captain will make $206.79 , nowhere near your supposed pay rates. But one can dream right?

As far as your job security...we thought we had negotiated that. When you have a no furlough clause that states "circumstances which the company does not have control shall not include the financial state of the company or the state of the economy" you pretty much think you have your bases covered. Hense the grievance that has been filed.

"All Delta flying performed by Delta pilots" is a worthy goal. Instead of furloughs and scope we could be writing about CRJ900's and growth - I'd be sitting in the right seat, you would be in the left.

I agree this is indeed a worthy goal. I am not opposed to this concept at all. I would say however the first thing that needs to be accomplished is that the wholy owned DCI needs to scope out all 70 seat and under flying to prevent your flying from being farmed out to ACA, Eagle, & SkyWest.

When you say "what DALPA did", just what do you mean? ALPA national is who shot down your request. DALPA opinion was that any conversation about intergration should not include anything to do with date of hire. While the Comair/ASA MEC's did not come out and say that phrase the fact of the matter is when you apply ALPA's merger & frag. policy, the possibility exists that such a thing may happen. Why didn't the Comair MEC come out and say any integration talks would be staple only? They didn't because they were looking out for their pilots, DALPA was simply doing the same.

The DALPA MEC offered to begin discussions about a flow-thru. Comair MEC declined... Why should it be up to DALPA to follow up anymore? Out of the kindness of our hearts so I can move backwards on my list? Thanks anyway....

However, Bill Buergey, your MEC Chairman says he is against any type of Onelist because there would be no place for his squadron mates to....

Here we go again with the lies.... other than reading this on the internet, just where has this been published? I have never seen ANY official position concerning this. But it sure makes your post sound juicy huh? A friend of a friend heard from a buddy in the crew room that flew with......

And then there is scope. In ALPA pilots have the right to vote on contracts that affect their pay and working conditions. Thanks to scope I will be a First Officer for a long, long, time. However, I never was given the opportunity vote on the contract ALPA negotiated with my employer that wrecked my upgrade opportunities.

The DALPA MEC negotiated a deffinition of the flying that would be done by Delta pilots. I suggest in your next contract you do the same. Also, I have the feeling that I'll be an F/O a hell of a lot longer then you will be DUE TO OUR SCOPE CLAUSE and the liberal expansion of DCI.

As individuals I like many Delta pilots and consider them friends; as a group within ALPA I feel you guys are predatory, completely egocentric, arrogant without justification and presently are sucking the life blood out of the company that I enjoy working for.

On this I agree. If all I knew about Comair pilots was what I read on the internet I wouldn't give a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** what happened to your pilot group. But because I have many friends that fly at Comair, I know that these opinions are simply politics of the MEC and a few brainwashed followers who, no matter how much facts are placed in front of them, refuse to find a solution that is anything other than 100% their opinion.

Right now your MEC is trying to negotiate furlough protection - using my equipment without my participation - if your furlough protection comes at the expense of Connection pilots you have no idea how ugly this will be.

Last I heard was of the possibility of a preferential interview. You would be opposed to furloughed pilots getting hired on the bottom of your list? Man...talk about bitterness.

There are many folks like me who are quietly seething over what your union has done to us.

Time to take a blood pressure pill and move on.... there's more to life than your job.

Merry Christmas!

 

[snowback]

1900Laker,

Very nice. I'm probably biased, but I think DAL is the best airline in the country to be working for. Tell your Father that I've been with Delta only 5 years and I appreciate all the hard work the senior guys have done in the past to get us to the level we are now.

 

[goldentrout]

Here's an idea for the new year.

Yes, the senior guys have paid their dues...OK, fine.

How about we use 9/11 to design a new salary structure so that when hard times come, thousands of people...usually the junior folks who can least afford it, don't have to lose their jobs.

The idea is simple. A base salary that is not outrageous, and a bonus structure based on the performance of the company. If the company makes billions, we all share in the wealth. If the company loses millions, we all share in the pain...but keep our jobs.

The current system just pits the "haves" against the "have-nots."

I've already heard the argument that "management will skew the numbers to keep the bonuses down." That can be overcome by smart people writing certain provisions into our contracts, and that's not a good enough reason to reject outright the bonus idea.

If we're really a brotherhood, then the above idea seems to be a good option. Unfortunately, most of what I saw post 9/11 was that brotherhood stopped at people's pocketbook.

For the good of all pilots in the future, it seems like now might be a good time to consider a paradigm shift on the salary structure issue.

 

[Sarguy]

Too bad your Dad wasn't one of the guys throwing bags on the ramp. I rode the jumpseat with a sr DAL captain who was and he had a totally different perspective about things. He told me, in no uncertain terms, that they eat their own. Regarding the poor captain "scrimping for retirement in the next few years?" Just how many FA's was this man married too? Based on your payrates, if a sr DAL pilot doesn't have quite a nice little nest egg built up by now a couple of years of penny pinching ain't going to help.

 

[skydiverdriver]

Mr sig,
The reason the Comair MEC did not come to them with a staple on only is because that is not how negotiations are started. Just as Delta's MEC did not go to Delta management with their bottom line offer, we could not start that way either. We only asked you to talk about it, just to talk. We probably would have been happy with a staple on, perhaps with DOH furlough protection. Then much less of your Delta pilots would now be on the street. However, your group (and other airlines who made up the group who turned us down), wouldn't even talk about it. That's all we wanted, a chance to TALK. Nothing else, just talk. Why is that so frightening? Now we had to take ALPA to court, and a judge will decide. Either they broke the law and their own charter, or they didn't. All of the other arguements are meaningless. They either broke the law or they didn't, that is the only question.

 

[ifly4food]

"Dubbya the Unionbuster"? I wonder if you remember who was in the White House when the American/APA showdown happened? I don't recall ANY unions being busted since George W. took office. All I've seen are unions (with the
exception of the Comair pilots) receving "industry leading" raises.

Well, I do remember who was in office (thanks for the smart remark), a union sympathetic president... and they still got nailed.

As for Dubbya not busting unions, let's see... Allowed Comair to strike, openly stated in public that he would prevent the Delta pilots from striking (and at that point eliminating all bargaining power of the pilot group), and now stating that he would stop the UAL mechs from striking.
I voted for Dubbya, because he was better than the alternative, but on interfering in union issues to favor management, he's 1-3.