The big vote. Any guesses?

[SaturnPilot]

they very well may be able to change the award via lawsuit...however, decertifying ALPA is once again not neccessary in order to win that lawsuit.

 

[charlie2]

True but I believe that ALPA yes yes both our pilots and national should have at least stood up for this group because THEY WERE NOT FURLOUGHED.

 

[TWA Dude]

yeah on the side of the MDA planes it said, "Operated by US Airways"......now how do you say they weren't part of US Airways???

My paycheck stub and W2 read "America West Airlines" -- but there is no more America West! How can this be? Answer: neither a paint job nor letterhead determine true employment status. Nice try.

Maybe Nic couldn't read huh?

Nicolau can read a lot better than you can. He understood full well what MDA was. quote from Nicolau Award, Page 20:

Before turning to the building blocks of our decision and the
reasons for those choices, a preliminary matter needs to be
addressed. That is the question of the CEL pilots. Some 105 such
pilots (4993-5098) appear on the US Airways May 19, 2005 Certified
Seniority List. However, none had flown for the mainline; all were
pilots at Mid-Atlantic Airways, a regional carrier designed to be a US Airways
wholly-owned subsidiary, but actually flown at all times during its short existence
on the mainline's operating certificate as a division of US Airways.

Barring any proof of impropriety no court will overturn an arbitrator's ruling, guaranteed. MDA was operated as a separate division and thus that's what it was. Thus the paint job, paystub, and union status aren't relevent.

 

[SaturnPilot]

True but I believe that ALPA yes yes both our pilots and national should have at least stood up for this group because THEY WERE NOT FURLOUGHED.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the East MEC did stand up for these pilots and have them as not furloughed going into the merger negotiations. If that is not the case, then as you have stated, that would be the fault of the local reps. National as a rule stays out of these negotiations, for GOOD reason. Once the issue goes to binding arbitration, there is nothing that National can do.

If the award needs to be protested, then the appropriate vehicle for that is the lawsuit, which is what is happening. National should not get involved with that either, since they also represent AWA pilots, just as USAPA would. If National got involved in this lawsuit, they would in turn get sued for DFR for attempting to change a binding arbitration award, just as USAPA would. The lawsuit will run its course as intended without National involvement. I understand this issue is important to you, but it seems you want National to acheive the un-attainable.

 

[charlie2]

TWA Dude I'm really talking about the guys who lost big here...the almost 200 guys furloughed from US Airways, then recalled to the 170, not the CEL guys.

SaturnPilot I think that even in a BINDING arbitration situation a national union has the right to speak out, there was no gag order.

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA's merger policy prevents the National union from speaking out on SLI issues. Again, to do so would show favoritism to one side or the other. If National had spoken out about this, then the AWA MEC could claim that National was favoring the East pilots. National can't get caught in the middle. That's exactly why you have binding arbitration. A neutral arbitrator can decide without having any conflict of interest.

 

[charlie2]

By pointing out that there was a mistake in the status of 200 or so pilots I don't think is being "caught in the middle". If Nic put the most senior Capt in the west on the bottom I bet that Capt would have expected ALPA to HELP correct that mistake.

 

[LearLove]

Whatever the vote, the award by the mediator will stand.

I agree with ultra here. Even if ALPA is voted out I don't think the Nic award will change (unless both sides come to a diff agreement).

If you want to vote ALPA out do it for whatever reason but don't do it thinking it will change the award to DOH.

 

[charlie2]

Absolutely, I am voting USAPA not because I think they will change Nic but because I have no confidence in ALPA based on everything we've talked about.

 

[TWA Dude]

TWA Dude I'm really talking about the guys who lost big here...the almost 200 guys furloughed from US Airways, then recalled to the 170, not the CEL guys.

I'm aware of that. That paragraph explained how Nicolau ruled on MDA's status.

Consider this: let's say that Nicolau ruled that MDA was, in fact, Mainline and those pilots weren't furloughed at merger time. We all know that the furloughed pilots were placed junior to active AWA pilots. We also know that not all furloughees who were offered slots at MDA accepted them. Would you have expected Nicolau to individually place each MDA pilot someplace senior to furloughees? In other words, you think he should've rearranged the East seniority list based on those who went to MDA?

Short answers: no and no. And no judge will rearrange the East list either.

SaturnPilot I think that even in a BINDING arbitration situation a national union has the right to speak out, there was no gag order.

Not answering for him, but when ALPA Merger Policy places an arbitrator's ruling as the final authority that means there's not a darned thing ALPA can do or say exept binding is binding. Prater and the EC must be officially neutral as to the merits of the arbitrator's ruling. And BTW, I haven't heared any other MECs complaining they think the East got screwed.

If Nic put the most senior Capt in the west on the bottom I bet that Capt would have expected ALPA to HELP correct that mistake.

You just don't get it. ALPA can't violate its own policy! The highest authority to settle a dispute between two ALPA entities isn't Prater, isn't the EC, isn't the EB, isn't the rank-and-file pilots, it's the ABRITRATOR. Whether you or I think he ruled fairly is irrelevent. He's like the US Supreme Court for unions -- there is no appeal and no higher authority.

 

[TWA Dude]

Absolutely, I am voting USAPA not because I think they will change Nic but because I have no confidence in ALPA based on everything we've talked about.

Then prepare to lose your confidence in USAPA as well, if they win. Because I can guarantee you they won't accomplish anything more for the East pilots than ALPA. Your problems don't stem from your union...

 

[charlie2]

You're convincing me even more I don't need ALPA.

 

[TWA Dude]

Perfect! So don't vote at all.

 

[PCL_128]

By pointing out that there was a mistake in the status of 200 or so pilots I don't think is being "caught in the middle". If Nic put the most senior Capt in the west on the bottom I bet that Capt would have expected ALPA to HELP correct that mistake.

ALPA policy is clear: binding arbitration is final. No ifs, ands, or buts. For ALPA to try to change the arbitrator's ruling would be against ALPA policy, and therefore illegal. ALPA had no choice but to accept the arbitrator's ruling. Your beef should be with your own AAA reps, not ALPA.

 

[regionaltard]

they very well may be able to change the award via lawsuit...however, decertifying ALPA is once again not neccessary in order to win that lawsuit.

Would you mind sharing with us what you believe the grounds for overturning an arbitration award, any arbitration award, to be?