Nevets
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2007
- Posts
- 2,431
I think that Great Lakes is trying to switch to ALPA.
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
- Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
- Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
- Share the passion for aviation
- Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun
Teamsters Vs Alpa
- Thread starter suupah
- Start date
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
- Invite your friends
- Share the passion of aviation
- Friendliest aviation community on the web
I think that Great Lakes is trying to switch to ALPA.
Nevets
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2007
- Posts
- 2,431
Aren't their pilots IPA?
Rez O. Lewshun
Save the Profession
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2004
- Posts
- 13,422
Yes... UPS pilots are IPA not IBT. The recent two cargo contracts at FX and UPS clearly show ALPA negotiated a better contract. Look at the voting %'s for the contract... UPS pilots passed the contract with 2/3 majority... that is a carefully controlled and manipulated management contract.
The FX contract passed by over 90% pilots in favor. That is a pilot contract.
Has an IBT or in house pilot union ever struck? Pinnacle pilots recently got 2 MIL to fight management. No money... no strike...
The FX contract passed by over 90% pilots in favor. That is a pilot contract.
Has an IBT or in house pilot union ever struck? Pinnacle pilots recently got 2 MIL to fight management. No money... no strike...
UPS pilots are not represented by the Teamsters. The UPS pilots left the Teamsters and formed their own in house union - the IPA. The Teamsters are no longer a member of the AFL-CIO while ALPA still is. As a result ALPA is being forced by the AFL-CIO to reduce the services it provides to the Teamsters.
Clarify your question. Do you not want an integration? Would you prefer a huge whipsaw?
First off YOUR union is only as strong as the pilots and the leadership they elect. Second your company will only be as good as management wants it to be. PCL, TSA, and Mesa all suck because that is what management wants. XJT just got there flying with CAL back because they have quality management none of this is a function of ALPA.
If your truly concerned do your own research and decide what type of a central union structure you want to be a part of. I have held leadership roles in both of the unions in question and I can tell you they are very different. Each has its pros and cons.
Do your own homework and don't believe a word you read on this board. If you are a Colgon pilot this is a very important decision.
If your truly concerned do your own research and decide what type of a central union structure you want to be a part of. I have held leadership roles in both of the unions in question and I can tell you they are very different. Each has its pros and cons.
Do your own homework and don't believe a word you read on this board. If you are a Colgon pilot this is a very important decision.
suupah
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2004
- Posts
- 1,779
I am pretty sure that the Colgan pilots are not interested in either Integration or whipsaw. They are mainly interested in 1. Isolation from the
PNCL Management/Pilot war, PNCL ALPA and pilots and 2. Being left alone to go to work
Last edited:
Nevets
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2007
- Posts
- 2,431
Allegheny-Mohawk Labor Protection Provisions Sections 3 & 13?
DoinTime
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2001
- Posts
- 2,523
Unfortunately, neither of these two are going to be presentable options and no union will ever be able to make it happen.
The problem with this whole situation is that the true "interests" of the pilots will never be at the forefront of any discussion. If you think ALPA, teamsters, in-house, or no union at all will achieve your ideal situation you are dead wrong.
Some things you can count on are that you will be whipsawed against everyone. Management will only pay you the absolute minimum that either the law, or the market, will allow. Management is not interested in your quality of life. The higher you climb on the longevity scale the more of a liability you become. [Phil Trenary has told new hire classes that he doesn't want to see any of them still around in 3-5 years.] It really is to bad but our "interests" are not at the heart of our executives.
If you think that someday you would like to be a Northwest, Delta, United, Continental, FedEx, or Alaska pilot you must not have any real objection to being a part of ALPA. Why is this such a hard decision?
FlyinScotsman
Left-Handed Gear Jockey
- Joined
- May 27, 2005
- Posts
- 189
The teamsters or ALPA are only as good as the people who volunteer.
I would suggest you look at who ALPA represents and do those airlines align well with your airline- like major with major- or is it a major- regional relationship.
If it is the former than you should go with the teamsters, both have successfully negotiated contracts good and bad, but I don't think ALPA can represent both sides of the same coin. When the chips are down ALPA will throw the regional pilots under the bus every time, example scope that has created the 50 seat RJ mess.
The teamsters will fight for your airline and its pilots. The buiness agents that work for the Local 747 have much airline experience and they have a good track record of representing pilots against certificate action and also job loss.
ALPA good if you fly for a major
Teamsters good if you fly for a regional
I would suggest you look at who ALPA represents and do those airlines align well with your airline- like major with major- or is it a major- regional relationship.
If it is the former than you should go with the teamsters, both have successfully negotiated contracts good and bad, but I don't think ALPA can represent both sides of the same coin. When the chips are down ALPA will throw the regional pilots under the bus every time, example scope that has created the 50 seat RJ mess.
The teamsters will fight for your airline and its pilots. The buiness agents that work for the Local 747 have much airline experience and they have a good track record of representing pilots against certificate action and also job loss.
ALPA good if you fly for a major
Teamsters good if you fly for a regional
JoeMerchant
ASA pilot
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2005
- Posts
- 6,353
In 2000, the ASA and CMR pilots tried to stop the whipsaw and force an integration......Egos at DALPA and ALPA decided it was better to have whipsaw than to allow regional lowlife to occupy the same seniority list as the chosen master race.....
Apparantly ALPA and DALPA prefer whipsaw....Ironically they are doing it all over again with the NWA folks......Pass the popcorn.......
Sorry, but you've got to pick one. If you don't want an integration, then you're going to have to accept a massive whipsaw. If you don't want the massive whipsaw, then you're going to have to work towards an integration. That's just reality.
At this rate, I'm firmly convinced that you and I will still be arguing about the 2000 PID 30 years from now. Let it go, John. It's over. In fact, it was over 8 years ago! Time to move on.
suupah
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2004
- Posts
- 1,779
Integration results in the pinnacle pilot group who have a bigger union stick, screwing the colgan pilot group. The million dollar question is......Do we stand a better chance with Teamsters or Alpa. Most pilots here firmly believe that we are better off with teamsters.
This is not true. If this is what the IBT supporters have been telling you then it's no wonder that you're having doubts about ALPA. It simply isn't true. Fact: ALG-Mohawk LPPs that govern mergers between two different unions are exactly the same as ALPA merger policy. Whether you're with the IBT or ALPA, the same merger policy will be adhered to: direct negotiations, mediation, then arbitration. Neither pilot group has a "bigger stick" under this policy. This is what you need to consider: in a merger, ALPA will only be responsible under the law for protecting the interests of its own members. If you are members of ALPA, then ALPA will have to negotiate fairly for both pilot groups. But if ALPA only represents the PCL pilots, then ALPA is only responsible for negotiating and fighting for the best interests of the PCL pilots. In a fight over integration, who do you think has more experience in negotiating, mediating, and arbitrating a pilot integration? The IBT doesn't hold a candle to ALPA in these matters. If it comes down to a fight between ALPA and the IBT on an integration, then the IBT members will be at an extreme disadvantage. If I were you, I'd want ALPA on my side.
suupah
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2004
- Posts
- 1,779
how does the fact that the acquisition of 9L by pncl occured before this law (ALG-Mohawk) was written affect whether it applies in this case?
Afraid to Fly
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2007
- Posts
- 65
Suppah, if Colgan votes in the Teamsters they are going to get STEAMROLLED when it comes to merging the lists.
The current head of the Teamster airline division is from Atlas. Atlas is ALPA. Some at ALPA view that he is 'poaching' other unions as he is actually the former MEC chair at Atlas.
ALPA wants to make sure that this guy does not do well under any cirumstances and prove which is the better pilot union. If Colgan votes in the Teamsters they are going to be made examples of to future companies.
The current head of the Teamster airline division is from Atlas. Atlas is ALPA. Some at ALPA view that he is 'poaching' other unions as he is actually the former MEC chair at Atlas.
ALPA wants to make sure that this guy does not do well under any cirumstances and prove which is the better pilot union. If Colgan votes in the Teamsters they are going to be made examples of to future companies.
Last edited:
Well, ALG-Mohawk existed long before the new law was written. Most CBAs include references to the LPPs for use during integrations with non-ALPA pilot groups. The only thing the new law really guarantees is that two non-union pilot groups would still get the protection from the LPPs. In the case of PCL/CJC, the LPPs would have been used even without the new law since the PCL contract requires it. What you need to be concerned about is who is representing you if/when an integration takes place. The IBT going up against ALPA in an integration is like a toddler getting in a fight with Mike Tyson. Guess who's going to win? You want ALPA on your side.
Listen to this man.
ReverseSensing
On the BC
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2004
- Posts
- 1,452
So you're saying there will be a lot of spitting-up, drooling, and ear-biting?
SaturnPilot
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 20, 2003
- Posts
- 229
not many people at PCL want any type of steamroll job on colgan. The best merger would involve 2 ALPA carriers where each union would not be competing with each other rather than ensuring a fair integration. A merger will go smooth with reasonable representatives on each airline MEC going into negotiations. Currently the reps at PCL have NO interest in sharing the cockpit with someone who can't stand them because of a unfair merger for the rest of their career.
If the Colgan pilots are most concerned with their standing in a merger, I strongly believe they will be better off as ALPA.
JoeMerchant
ASA pilot
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2005
- Posts
- 6,353
Here is a perfect example of Herndon Koolaid....
The implication is that a merger will go more smoothly if Colgan is ALPA....
1. Look at two of the recent ALPA/ALPA mergers.....AAA/AWA and DAL/NWA....Both ended up being huge food fights....with one group leaving ALPA over the fight...I suspect the other group will follow...
2. ALPA Policy prevents ALPA from acting on the behalf of Colgan pilots or Pinnacle pilots in the event of a merger....Colgan pilots have to set up a separate merger fund and a special assessment to pay for it....In other words it doesn't matter if you are ALPA...In fact Teamsters wouldn't have that prohibition and would probably help fund the seniority battle.....
3. ALPA is in financial trouble and is starting to raise dues...They started by raising dues on the members that make the least......Be careful.....
Joe (former Herndon koolaid drinker)
SaturnPilot
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 20, 2003
- Posts
- 229
I don't work for Herndon, nor do I drink anybody's koolaid.
as I said, merger success is largely dependent on each airline's MEC acting reasonably. If you can sit here and tell me that was the case in the AAA/AWA merger, you are on crack. Let me ask you, Joe, do you think the AAA/AWA merger would have gone any better if it was USAPA vs. ALPA? get real...
exactly...just like ALPA would fund the seniority battle at PCL if Colgan was Teamsters, which is what it would become, a battle. As has already been posted in this thread, ALPA and the Teamsters do not have the greatest relationship nowadays and if Colgan goes with the Teamsters, the most likely result is that each side will be focused on the battle at the national level rather than a fair integration. As I said before, none of the PCL reps want to spend the rest of their careers sharing the cockpit with someone who can't stand them because of a nasty merger.
The Colgan guys can choose whichever one they want and I think most people will be happy they are choosing to unionize. In my opinion a ALPA/ALPA merger results in 2 equal airlines with no large advantages over each other (roughly equal longevity, career expectations, movement, etc.), a ALPA/Teamsters merger would likely result in more of a pissing contest.
ALPA has not raised any dues. There is currently a resolution that will be voted on by the BOD this fall changing dues income exemptions.
ALPA has $80 million in the MCF. Hardly any "financial trouble."
DoinTime
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2001
- Posts
- 2,523
...and American/TWA worked out real well didnt it?
AAA/AWA worked exactly the way it should have. Problem was the AAA pilots threw a hissy at at the arbitrators award. They should have though about the down side prior to accepting arbitration.
NWA/DAL have not merged yet. They have not been bound by ALPA merger policy.
Let me say this to any Colgan pilots who are concerned about this talk of seniority integration. Talk to the Pinnacle pilots. TALK! Not through this stupid message board, but face to face.
You guys may just find out how reasonable and fair the process can be. You will never know until you talk.
Pick up the phone. Call.
You guys may just find out how reasonable and fair the process can be. You will never know until you talk.
Pick up the phone. Call.
JoeMerchant
ASA pilot
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2005
- Posts
- 6,353
The implication was that things will be better IF Colgan is ALPA.....That isn't true....You're correct that AA/TWA was a disaster....But don't blow sunshine up the Colgan folks a$$ about things being a walk in the park if everyone is in the big happy ALPA family....That is BS.....
PNCL folks will pull some BS "career expectations" argument about RJs and 90 seaters.....Just like every merger.....
ALPA/ALPA mergers have been some of the ugliest out there....There isn't a true "brotherhood" within ALPA....So stop pretending there is....
Share this page
Latest resources
-
-
-
-
-
AC 90-89C - Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing HandbookAmateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
- Neal
- Updated:
