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Teamsters Vs Alpa

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suupah,

as you said...the strenght of the individual MEC is really what matters when it comes to getting a good contract. With either choice the pilots of Colgan will be making the decisions for the pilots of Colgan. The benefit of ALPA is the resources given to the MEC and the individual pilots. ALPA will give you access to the Economic & Financial Analysis dept telling you exactly how much Phildo can afford, a legal department with a tremendous amount of experience to advise your MEC on what to do, a lawyer dedicated to your airline to sit at the negotiating table with you, etc.

As far as individual pilots go, you are given countless resources when you need help. ALPA aeromedical is able to assist with any medical questions and has a great record of getting back lost medicals in record time. After sliding off a runway, the orange card gets you an instant lawyer and advise before you even have to talk to anyone. One of the biggest benefits is the financial security with ALPA. When your pilot group gets deep into negotiations, ALPA will provide you with around $2 million in order to set up a strike center, monitor any flights flown on a strike, advertise how much of a large D-bag Trenary is on a billboard, etc.

I do not know as much about what the Teamsters provide, but I have heard that the resources are not as great. If anybody else has a different personal experience with the Teamsters, I will stand corrected.

As we have already seen here, any ALPA v. Teamsters debate is going to have numerous examples of airlines with crappy contracts thrown in. As each airline in either case chooses their own future, I would submit that has nothing to do with the debate. Either way, I think it's great that the Colgan pilots are again looking at representation to stand up to the Buddy f*cker, Phildo, and the rest of the useless cow dung at PNCL Corp.
 
701EV said:
ALPA is a gentelmans club who f@ck the other gentelman when the have to.

701EV
Click to expand...

Just like the IBT f-ing the ALPA represented pilots of Trans States (and in effect, every other pilot group) by organizing the GoJet pilots. Thanks for clearing that up!

ALPA may not be perfect but they blow the doors off of the IBT in every measurable way.

Oh, and F-ck GoJet.
 
ALPA Aeromedical beats everyone else hands down.

Like Safety, they are the resources you hope to never use, but when you need it, you're damn glad to have it.
 
Comparing contracts is a poor way to evaluate the relative merits between choosing the IBT or ALPA. Each has its share of successes and dogs.

I would look carefully at the representation structure of the two and how much say actual line pilots have within each organization. Within the ALPA structure, line pilots make most of the critical decisions affecting your airline. The staff serve as a support group to help. As I understand the IBT, the pilots are represented by a board that is advisory only, while the decisions are made by business agents who are employed by the union. If decisions are made by these staff people that the pilots find unacceptable, I don't think there is anything you can do about it. I have never worked for an IBT group, so check this information carefully, as I am operating on hearsay.

I have had personal experience with services such as ALPA Aeromedical and those are top notch. As far as ALPA staff work in Economic analysis, safety, etc., most of the other airline unions either buy these services from ALPA or defer to them entirely.

Hope this helps.
 
ALPA and Teamsters can both take a flying leap into the Hudson river with cement shoes. Unfortunately they are a necessary evil in our business, but I would rather unionize in house or have my own local.

Either way I would gladly take teamster over ALPA 6 days a week and twice on Sunday!!
 
WildBlue said:
I would look carefully at the representation structure of the two and how much say actual line pilots have within each organization. Within the ALPA structure, line pilots make most of the critical decisions affecting your airline. The staff serve as a support group to help. As I understand the IBT, the pilots are represented by a board that is advisory only, while the decisions are made by business agents who are employed by the union. If decisions are made by these staff people that the pilots find unacceptable, I don't think there is anything you can do about it.
Click to expand...


This is a good depiction of what you get from both ALPA and the Teamsters. If you want to be in control of your destiny (for better or for worse) vote ALPA. If you want someone who knows nothing about your Company, the type of operation you run, or who your pilots are vote Teamsters.

Your selfless thoughts on the subject should also include who is fighting for the profession? Who has a voice in international pilot relations? Who is established in development of open skies and other ICAO laws? Who was able to modify age 60 legislation to preserve current contractual rights whether explicit or implied? Who is the champion of CrewPass? Who will likely be your bargaining agent at your next carrier?

The Teamsters don't care about our profession. They are an organization of people who have never walked a day in the shoes of those they represent. If you want to talk about inter-Union scandal, corruption, and controversy...well, the Teamsters invented the game. Their exploits in corruption make ALPA soap box politics seem like a school yard game.

As a Colgan pilot I would be looking for representation that provided for the best possible relationship with my coworkers under PCL corp (cross certificate pilots, dispatchers, schedulers, flight attendants, and ground workers) and best potential outcome for a first, and subsequent, contract. ALPA has 20 years of negotiating history with Pinnacle Corp. The Teamsters have zero.
 
WildBlue said:
As I understand the IBT, the pilots are represented by a board that is advisory only, while the decisions are made by business agents who are employed by the union. If decisions are made by these staff people that the pilots find unacceptable, I don't think there is anything you can do about it. I have never worked for an IBT group, so check this information carefully, as I am operating on hearsay.
Click to expand...

You were smart to admit that you don't exactly know what you're talking about, because your hearsay information is flawed.

Say what you will about the merits of Teamsters vs. ALPA, but all the checks at Local 747 (Horizon, Republic, and about 12 other carriers) are signed by two people, and one of them is a line pilot at Horizon. I guarantee that makes his role more than just advisory.

EXCOs (line pilots) make decisions for their represented pilots (if they want to) and the Executive Boards of the Locals (line pilots) set policy for the Locals. Business agents and general counsels/presidents and their support staff are just that -- support staff.

The Airline Division and the International are pretty much just a trademark and have very little to do with the day-to-day affairs of Teamster pilots. The value of this overhead is dubious at best, but just like ALPA, the strength of a Teamsters pilot group is at the line pilot level, not the top.

I hate to sound like Rez, but being a Teamsters-affiliated pilot or an ALPA-affiliated pilot doesn't give anyone the right to sit back and expect someone else to do all the heavy-lifting.
 
Yes... UPS pilots are IPA not IBT. The recent two cargo contracts at FX and UPS clearly show ALPA negotiated a better contract. Look at the voting %'s for the contract... UPS pilots passed the contract with 2/3 majority... that is a carefully controlled and manipulated management contract.

The FX contract passed by over 90% pilots in favor. That is a pilot contract.

Has an IBT or in house pilot union ever struck? Pinnacle pilots recently got 2 MIL to fight management. No money... no strike...
 
Have you ever seen the UPS contract for their employees. Pretty darn good.

701EV
Click to expand...

UPS pilots are not represented by the Teamsters. The UPS pilots left the Teamsters and formed their own in house union - the IPA. The Teamsters are no longer a member of the AFL-CIO while ALPA still is. As a result ALPA is being forced by the AFL-CIO to reduce the services it provides to the Teamsters.
 
How does being represented by ALPA or Teamsters affect the inevitable seniority integration issues between Colgan and Pinn.?
 
suupah said:
How does being represented by ALPA or Teamsters affect the inevitable seniority integration issues between Colgan and Pinn.?
Click to expand...

Clarify your question. Do you not want an integration? Would you prefer a huge whipsaw?
 
First off YOUR union is only as strong as the pilots and the leadership they elect. Second your company will only be as good as management wants it to be. PCL, TSA, and Mesa all suck because that is what management wants. XJT just got there flying with CAL back because they have quality management none of this is a function of ALPA.
If your truly concerned do your own research and decide what type of a central union structure you want to be a part of. I have held leadership roles in both of the unions in question and I can tell you they are very different. Each has its pros and cons.
Do your own homework and don't believe a word you read on this board. If you are a Colgon pilot this is a very important decision.
 
PCL_128 said:
Clarify your question. Do you not want an integration? Would you prefer a huge whipsaw?
Click to expand...

I am pretty sure that the Colgan pilots are not interested in either Integration or whipsaw. They are mainly interested in 1. Isolation from the
PNCL Management/Pilot war, PNCL ALPA and pilots and 2. Being left alone to go to work
 
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