Teamsters Vs Alpa

[DoinTime]

I am pretty sure that the Colgan pilots are not interested in either Integration or whipsaw. They are mainly interested in 1. Isolation from the
PNCL Management/Pilot war, PNCL ALPA and pilots and 2. Being left alone to go to work

Unfortunately, neither of these two are going to be presentable options and no union will ever be able to make it happen.

The problem with this whole situation is that the true "interests" of the pilots will never be at the forefront of any discussion. If you think ALPA, teamsters, in-house, or no union at all will achieve your ideal situation you are dead wrong.

Some things you can count on are that you will be whipsawed against everyone. Management will only pay you the absolute minimum that either the law, or the market, will allow. Management is not interested in your quality of life. The higher you climb on the longevity scale the more of a liability you become. [Phil Trenary has told new hire classes that he doesn't want to see any of them still around in 3-5 years.] It really is to bad but our "interests" are not at the heart of our executives.

If you think that someday you would like to be a Northwest, Delta, United, Continental, FedEx, or Alaska pilot you must not have any real objection to being a part of ALPA. Why is this such a hard decision?

 

[FlyinScotsman]

The teamsters or ALPA are only as good as the people who volunteer.

I would suggest you look at who ALPA represents and do those airlines align well with your airline- like major with major- or is it a major- regional relationship.

If it is the former than you should go with the teamsters, both have successfully negotiated contracts good and bad, but I don't think ALPA can represent both sides of the same coin. When the chips are down ALPA will throw the regional pilots under the bus every time, example scope that has created the 50 seat RJ mess.

The teamsters will fight for your airline and its pilots. The buiness agents that work for the Local 747 have much airline experience and they have a good track record of representing pilots against certificate action and also job loss.

ALPA good if you fly for a major

Teamsters good if you fly for a regional

 

[JoeMerchant]

Clarify your question. Do you not want an integration? Would you prefer a huge whipsaw?

In 2000, the ASA and CMR pilots tried to stop the whipsaw and force an integration......Egos at DALPA and ALPA decided it was better to have whipsaw than to allow regional lowlife to occupy the same seniority list as the chosen master race.....

Apparantly ALPA and DALPA prefer whipsaw....Ironically they are doing it all over again with the NWA folks......Pass the popcorn.......

 

[PCL_128]

I am pretty sure that the Colgan pilots are not interested in either Integration or whipsaw.

Sorry, but you've got to pick one. If you don't want an integration, then you're going to have to accept a massive whipsaw. If you don't want the massive whipsaw, then you're going to have to work towards an integration. That's just reality.

 

[PCL_128]

In 2000, the ASA and CMR pilots tried to stop the whipsaw and force an integration......Egos at DALPA and ALPA decided it was better to have whipsaw than to allow regional lowlife to occupy the same seniority list as the chosen master race.....

Apparantly ALPA and DALPA prefer whipsaw....Ironically they are doing it all over again with the NWA folks......Pass the popcorn.......

At this rate, I'm firmly convinced that you and I will still be arguing about the 2000 PID 30 years from now. Let it go, John. It's over. In fact, it was over 8 years ago! Time to move on.

 

[suupah]

Sorry, but you've got to pick one. If you don't want an integration, then you're going to have to accept a massive whipsaw. If you don't want the massive whipsaw, then you're going to have to work towards an integration. That's just reality.

Integration results in the pinnacle pilot group who have a bigger union stick, screwing the colgan pilot group. The million dollar question is......Do we stand a better chance with Teamsters or Alpa. Most pilots here firmly believe that we are better off with teamsters.

 

[PCL_128]

Integration results in the pinnacle pilot group who have a bigger union stick, screwing the colgan pilot group.

This is not true. If this is what the IBT supporters have been telling you then it's no wonder that you're having doubts about ALPA. It simply isn't true. Fact: ALG-Mohawk LPPs that govern mergers between two different unions are exactly the same as ALPA merger policy. Whether you're with the IBT or ALPA, the same merger policy will be adhered to: direct negotiations, mediation, then arbitration. Neither pilot group has a "bigger stick" under this policy. This is what you need to consider: in a merger, ALPA will only be responsible under the law for protecting the interests of its own members. If you are members of ALPA, then ALPA will have to negotiate fairly for both pilot groups. But if ALPA only represents the PCL pilots, then ALPA is only responsible for negotiating and fighting for the best interests of the PCL pilots. In a fight over integration, who do you think has more experience in negotiating, mediating, and arbitrating a pilot integration? The IBT doesn't hold a candle to ALPA in these matters. If it comes down to a fight between ALPA and the IBT on an integration, then the IBT members will be at an extreme disadvantage. If I were you, I'd want ALPA on my side.

 

[suupah]

This is not true. If this is what the IBT supporters have been telling you then it's no wonder that you're having doubts about ALPA. It simply isn't true. Fact: ALG-Mohawk LPPs that govern mergers between two different unions are exactly the same as ALPA merger policy. Whether you're with the IBT or ALPA, the same merger policy will be adhered to: direct negotiations, mediation, then arbitration. Neither pilot group has a "bigger stick" under this policy. This is what you need to consider: in a merger, ALPA will only be responsible under the law for protecting the interests of its own members. If you are members of ALPA, then ALPA will have to negotiate fairly for both pilot groups. But if ALPA only represents the PCL pilots, then ALPA is only responsible for negotiating and fighting for the best interests of the PCL pilots. In a fight over integration, who do you think has more experience in negotiating, mediating, and arbitrating a pilot integration? The IBT doesn't hold a candle to ALPA in these matters. If it comes down to a fight between ALPA and the IBT on an integration, then the IBT members will be at an extreme disadvantage. If I were you, I'd want ALPA on my side.

how does the fact that the acquisition of 9L by pncl occured before this law (ALG-Mohawk) was written affect whether it applies in this case?

 

[Afraid to Fly]

Suppah, if Colgan votes in the Teamsters they are going to get STEAMROLLED when it comes to merging the lists.

The current head of the Teamster airline division is from Atlas. Atlas is ALPA. Some at ALPA view that he is 'poaching' other unions as he is actually the former MEC chair at Atlas.

ALPA wants to make sure that this guy does not do well under any cirumstances and prove which is the better pilot union. If Colgan votes in the Teamsters they are going to be made examples of to future companies.

 

[PCL_128]

how does the fact that the acquisition of 9L by pncl occured before this law (ALG-Mohawk) was written affect whether it applies in this case?

Well, ALG-Mohawk existed long before the new law was written. Most CBAs include references to the LPPs for use during integrations with non-ALPA pilot groups. The only thing the new law really guarantees is that two non-union pilot groups would still get the protection from the LPPs. In the case of PCL/CJC, the LPPs would have been used even without the new law since the PCL contract requires it. What you need to be concerned about is who is representing you if/when an integration takes place. The IBT going up against ALPA in an integration is like a toddler getting in a fight with Mike Tyson. Guess who's going to win? You want ALPA on your side.

 

[PCL_128]

Suppah, if Colgan votes in the Teamsters they are going to get STEAMROLLED when it comes to merging the lists.

The current head of the Teamster airline division is from Atlas. Atlas is ALPA. Some at ALPA view that he is 'poaching' other unions as he is actually the former MEC chair at Atlas.

ALPA wants to make sure that this guy does not do well under any cirumstances and prove which is the better pilot union. If Colgan votes in the Teamsters they are going to be made examples of to future companies.

Listen to this man.

 

[ReverseSensing]

The IBT going up against ALPA in an integration is like a toddler getting in a fight with Mike Tyson.

So you're saying there will be a lot of spitting-up, drooling, and ear-biting?

 

[SaturnPilot]

Integration results in the pinnacle pilot group who have a bigger union stick, screwing the colgan pilot group. The million dollar question is......Do we stand a better chance with Teamsters or Alpa. Most pilots here firmly believe that we are better off with teamsters.

not many people at PCL want any type of steamroll job on colgan. The best merger would involve 2 ALPA carriers where each union would not be competing with each other rather than ensuring a fair integration. A merger will go smooth with reasonable representatives on each airline MEC going into negotiations. Currently the reps at PCL have NO interest in sharing the cockpit with someone who can't stand them because of a unfair merger for the rest of their career.

If the Colgan pilots are most concerned with their standing in a merger, I strongly believe they will be better off as ALPA.

 

[JoeMerchant]

If the Colgan pilots are most concerned with their standing in a merger, I strongly believe they will be better off as ALPA.

Here is a perfect example of Herndon Koolaid....

The implication is that a merger will go more smoothly if Colgan is ALPA....

1. Look at two of the recent ALPA/ALPA mergers.....AAA/AWA and DAL/NWA....Both ended up being huge food fights....with one group leaving ALPA over the fight...I suspect the other group will follow...

2. ALPA Policy prevents ALPA from acting on the behalf of Colgan pilots or Pinnacle pilots in the event of a merger....Colgan pilots have to set up a separate merger fund and a special assessment to pay for it....In other words it doesn't matter if you are ALPA...In fact Teamsters wouldn't have that prohibition and would probably help fund the seniority battle.....

3. ALPA is in financial trouble and is starting to raise dues...They started by raising dues on the members that make the least......Be careful.....

Joe (former Herndon koolaid drinker)

 

[pilotyip]

ALPA is a format, all contracts are local in nature.

 

[SaturnPilot]

Here is a perfect example of Herndon Koolaid....

I don't work for Herndon, nor do I drink anybody's koolaid.

The implication is that a merger will go more smoothly if Colgan is ALPA....

1. Look at two of the recent ALPA/ALPA mergers.....AAA/AWA and DAL/NWA....Both ended up being huge food fights....with one group leaving ALPA over the fight...I suspect the other group will follow...

as I said, merger success is largely dependent on each airline's MEC acting reasonably. If you can sit here and tell me that was the case in the AAA/AWA merger, you are on crack. Let me ask you, Joe, do you think the AAA/AWA merger would have gone any better if it was USAPA vs. ALPA? get real...

2. ALPA Policy prevents ALPA from acting on the behalf of Colgan pilots or Pinnacle pilots in the event of a merger....Colgan pilots have to set up a separate merger fund and a special assessment to pay for it....In other words it doesn't matter if you are ALPA...In fact Teamsters wouldn't have that prohibition and would probably help fund the seniority battle.....

exactly...just like ALPA would fund the seniority battle at PCL if Colgan was Teamsters, which is what it would become, a battle. As has already been posted in this thread, ALPA and the Teamsters do not have the greatest relationship nowadays and if Colgan goes with the Teamsters, the most likely result is that each side will be focused on the battle at the national level rather than a fair integration. As I said before, none of the PCL reps want to spend the rest of their careers sharing the cockpit with someone who can't stand them because of a nasty merger.

The Colgan guys can choose whichever one they want and I think most people will be happy they are choosing to unionize. In my opinion a ALPA/ALPA merger results in 2 equal airlines with no large advantages over each other (roughly equal longevity, career expectations, movement, etc.), a ALPA/Teamsters merger would likely result in more of a pissing contest.

3. ALPA is in financial trouble and is starting to raise dues...They started by raising dues on the members that make the least......Be careful.....

ALPA has not raised any dues. There is currently a resolution that will be voted on by the BOD this fall changing dues income exemptions.

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA is in financial trouble

ALPA has $80 million in the MCF. Hardly any "financial trouble."

 

[DoinTime]

1. Look at two of the recent ALPA/ALPA mergers.....AAA/AWA and DAL/NWA....Both ended up being huge food fights....with one group leaving ALPA over the fight...I suspect the other group will follow...

...and American/TWA worked out real well didnt it?

AAA/AWA worked exactly the way it should have. Problem was the AAA pilots threw a hissy at at the arbitrators award. They should have though about the down side prior to accepting arbitration.

NWA/DAL have not merged yet. They have not been bound by ALPA merger policy.

 

[WildBlue]

Let me say this to any Colgan pilots who are concerned about this talk of seniority integration. Talk to the Pinnacle pilots. TALK! Not through this stupid message board, but face to face.

You guys may just find out how reasonable and fair the process can be. You will never know until you talk.

Pick up the phone. Call.

 

[JoeMerchant]

...and American/TWA worked out real well didnt it?

AAA/AWA worked exactly the way it should have. Problem was the AAA pilots threw a hissy at at the arbitrators award. They should have though about the down side prior to accepting arbitration.

NWA/DAL have not merged yet. They have not been bound by ALPA merger policy.

The implication was that things will be better IF Colgan is ALPA.....That isn't true....You're correct that AA/TWA was a disaster....But don't blow sunshine up the Colgan folks a$$ about things being a walk in the park if everyone is in the big happy ALPA family....That is BS.....

PNCL folks will pull some BS "career expectations" argument about RJs and 90 seaters.....Just like every merger.....

ALPA/ALPA mergers have been some of the ugliest out there....There isn't a true "brotherhood" within ALPA....So stop pretending there is....