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JBHewlett
AOPA & EAA Member
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TriDriver
Active member
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TAB Express
Hi 310
I've been lurking on this forum for a month or so, and I've been surprised at the snide PFT remarks being thrown at TAB Express unfairly. I decided it's time I registered and responded.
As was pointed out to you, check out http://www.tabexpress.com and see if the place has the kind of program you want. I assure you there is no PFT going on there other than you would find at Comair, FSI, or any FBO. You pay for your flight training, and that is it. There is no passenger/freight/cargo hauling on any flights. TAB Express is nothing but a flight school. You can go from no flight time to Comm/ME/Inst just like any number of FBO's or "Academies".
An Army helicopter guy recently trained there and got hired by Colgan. He had a good amount of total flight time, got his basic fixed-wing Comm/ME/Inst somewhere else, and found that with very little fixed-wing time, he was not really hirable anywhere. He came to TAB and took a course that got him a bunch of King Air simulator and (I think) 25 hours of flight time. I don't call that PFT. Just like Timebuilder said in another thread, he might get a Lear type someday. It can be used anywhere. This guy got some ME time in a pressurized turbine airplane flying in a multi-crew environment on the airways in a bunch of actual weather. He could use that for any corporate/airline job. Colgan liked that and hired him. TAB has no connection with Colgan, although they might like to. Colgan came down and looked at the operation several months ago. They hired about 4 students with 450 to 500 total hours. The students had to go through the entire Colgan training (and reportedly did great). They don't get any credit for anything they've done at TAB. There is no PFT aspect to the training at all.
THERE IS NO PFT GOING ON AT TAB EXPRESS!!
The only difference is that there is no emphasis (not even a program if you want it) to get a CFI. Therein lies the TAB Express difference. The philosophy of the place is that if you want to fly for an airline, why not train like you're going to fly. Instead of continuing on for a CFI, you continue your training by getting a bunch King Air simulator time, and 100 hours of actual flight time in the King Air. All of it is multi-crew/CRM/exactly like the airlines.
How do I know? I'm a captain for Delta, and I instruct part-time at TAB in the King Airs, and I guarantee you I would not associate myself with anyplace that did anything unscrupulous in any manner. I feel PFT was a scourge on the industry. There currently are not many PFT places left. Gulfstream is probably one, depending on your definition. On another thread on this board there is a discussion about Southwest. I am really surprised that the hard-core anti-PFTers that will quickly get overly righteous and indignant about PFT, they are for the most part perfectly comfortable with the Southwest type-rating requirement. I am too.
I will try and frequent this forum and answer questions about TAB Express, or anything else about flying. I'm just a "line pilot" there and not trying to sell the place to anybody, but I work there because I like the concept and the operation. I've got 2-1/2 years until age 60, and I started working at TAB this spring to develop it into a retirement job. I only do some sim training and mostly actual King Air training - what the company bills as LOFT or IOE flying under the tutelage of some of us airline types (we've got about 3 furloughed Delta guys working there right now). So, I might not have answers about the primary training readily available, but I can tell you about the King Air part of the program.
Fire away!!!
Bob, the TriDriver
P.S.: Timebuilder, I couldn't get into college either and had to go to a "trade school" and get a military education as you did!!! USMA '70
Hi 310
I've been lurking on this forum for a month or so, and I've been surprised at the snide PFT remarks being thrown at TAB Express unfairly. I decided it's time I registered and responded.
As was pointed out to you, check out http://www.tabexpress.com and see if the place has the kind of program you want. I assure you there is no PFT going on there other than you would find at Comair, FSI, or any FBO. You pay for your flight training, and that is it. There is no passenger/freight/cargo hauling on any flights. TAB Express is nothing but a flight school. You can go from no flight time to Comm/ME/Inst just like any number of FBO's or "Academies".
An Army helicopter guy recently trained there and got hired by Colgan. He had a good amount of total flight time, got his basic fixed-wing Comm/ME/Inst somewhere else, and found that with very little fixed-wing time, he was not really hirable anywhere. He came to TAB and took a course that got him a bunch of King Air simulator and (I think) 25 hours of flight time. I don't call that PFT. Just like Timebuilder said in another thread, he might get a Lear type someday. It can be used anywhere. This guy got some ME time in a pressurized turbine airplane flying in a multi-crew environment on the airways in a bunch of actual weather. He could use that for any corporate/airline job. Colgan liked that and hired him. TAB has no connection with Colgan, although they might like to. Colgan came down and looked at the operation several months ago. They hired about 4 students with 450 to 500 total hours. The students had to go through the entire Colgan training (and reportedly did great). They don't get any credit for anything they've done at TAB. There is no PFT aspect to the training at all.
THERE IS NO PFT GOING ON AT TAB EXPRESS!!
The only difference is that there is no emphasis (not even a program if you want it) to get a CFI. Therein lies the TAB Express difference. The philosophy of the place is that if you want to fly for an airline, why not train like you're going to fly. Instead of continuing on for a CFI, you continue your training by getting a bunch King Air simulator time, and 100 hours of actual flight time in the King Air. All of it is multi-crew/CRM/exactly like the airlines.
How do I know? I'm a captain for Delta, and I instruct part-time at TAB in the King Airs, and I guarantee you I would not associate myself with anyplace that did anything unscrupulous in any manner. I feel PFT was a scourge on the industry. There currently are not many PFT places left. Gulfstream is probably one, depending on your definition. On another thread on this board there is a discussion about Southwest. I am really surprised that the hard-core anti-PFTers that will quickly get overly righteous and indignant about PFT, they are for the most part perfectly comfortable with the Southwest type-rating requirement. I am too.
I will try and frequent this forum and answer questions about TAB Express, or anything else about flying. I'm just a "line pilot" there and not trying to sell the place to anybody, but I work there because I like the concept and the operation. I've got 2-1/2 years until age 60, and I started working at TAB this spring to develop it into a retirement job. I only do some sim training and mostly actual King Air training - what the company bills as LOFT or IOE flying under the tutelage of some of us airline types (we've got about 3 furloughed Delta guys working there right now). So, I might not have answers about the primary training readily available, but I can tell you about the King Air part of the program.
Fire away!!!
Bob, the TriDriver
P.S.: Timebuilder, I couldn't get into college either and had to go to a "trade school" and get a military education as you did!!! USMA '70
chperplt
Registered User
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- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 4,123
Bob,
As a line captain for Colgan, I can attest to the quality product that comes out of TAB Express. I went through upgrade as those 4 you mentioned were going through initial. They breezed through ground school, and did very well in the sim. I've flown with a 2 of them in the past few months and I can't say enough.
Definitely a quality school.
As a line captain for Colgan, I can attest to the quality product that comes out of TAB Express. I went through upgrade as those 4 you mentioned were going through initial. They breezed through ground school, and did very well in the sim. I've flown with a 2 of them in the past few months and I can't say enough.
Definitely a quality school.
310
Well-known member
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- Aug 30, 2002
- Posts
- 199
TriDriver,
Thanks for the response. I have about 850+ TT, about half is multi-engine (moslty Cessna 310). I am 40 yrs old, no degree. I am looking at the 1000/100 program at TAB. I need sim time (I have none) and all the other airline classes. Do I realistically have any chance of a FO seat in the near future? Any other info about TAB's 1000/100 program gladly accepted. Thanks. ( I will bring my TT up to 1000 in my twin.)
Thanks for the response. I have about 850+ TT, about half is multi-engine (moslty Cessna 310). I am 40 yrs old, no degree. I am looking at the 1000/100 program at TAB. I need sim time (I have none) and all the other airline classes. Do I realistically have any chance of a FO seat in the near future? Any other info about TAB's 1000/100 program gladly accepted. Thanks. ( I will bring my TT up to 1000 in my twin.)
bobbysamd
Well-known member
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- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 5,710
TAB charters
Good post, Bob.
What about the news release that TAB put on its website a few months ago in which it said it had applied for a 135 operating certificate and that TAB students would be the FOs on those flights? If those students are operating as required crew, they are taking away away a paying job from someone. That is P-F-T. Or, if they're just warming the right seat, that is also P-F-T and the time logged may be questionable.
Now, if TAB never obtained the 135 certificate and is not operating revenue flights, that's another matter.
I would say that TAB is greatly misrepresenting the need for pilots. This quote from TAB's website:
Your timing is right! According to the US Government and industry insiders, and a recent article written by the Journal of Commerce: "The airline industry will face a critical shortage of pilots, and mechanics during the next decade and may no longer be able to rely on traditional sources to supply them. The demand for experienced pilots will remove the supply of workers entering the labor force.
is classic Kit Darby pilot shortage promotion. Even in bad times, such as now and ten years ago, the time with which I am most familiar, there is always some hiring. Even when the economy improves, it'll take a couple of years for the airlines to absorb its furloughees. So, it might take several years during that "critical decade" before there are airline openings for TAB trainees, and others.
Once again, good post. Your information has furthered this discussion. Your opinions of P-F-T are also appreciated.
Good post, Bob.
What about the news release that TAB put on its website a few months ago in which it said it had applied for a 135 operating certificate and that TAB students would be the FOs on those flights? If those students are operating as required crew, they are taking away away a paying job from someone. That is P-F-T. Or, if they're just warming the right seat, that is also P-F-T and the time logged may be questionable.
Now, if TAB never obtained the 135 certificate and is not operating revenue flights, that's another matter.
I would say that TAB is greatly misrepresenting the need for pilots. This quote from TAB's website:
Your timing is right! According to the US Government and industry insiders, and a recent article written by the Journal of Commerce: "The airline industry will face a critical shortage of pilots, and mechanics during the next decade and may no longer be able to rely on traditional sources to supply them. The demand for experienced pilots will remove the supply of workers entering the labor force.
is classic Kit Darby pilot shortage promotion. Even in bad times, such as now and ten years ago, the time with which I am most familiar, there is always some hiring. Even when the economy improves, it'll take a couple of years for the airlines to absorb its furloughees. So, it might take several years during that "critical decade" before there are airline openings for TAB trainees, and others.
Once again, good post. Your information has furthered this discussion. Your opinions of P-F-T are also appreciated.
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publisher
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- Nov 27, 2001
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- 592
TAB
TAB is a flight school Bobby, period.
They also are an FBO and maintenance facility. In addition, one part of the company acutally dry leases Kin Airs to companies.
Whether TAB has a 135 or not, it is a flight school period. Even if they took a passenger, they are not taking anything from anybody because they only exist as a flight school/
I think the reason that they even messed with the 135 was to have a place where their students could go and work for pay if they were not picked up immediately in a regional dea.
TAB is a flight school Bobby, period.
They also are an FBO and maintenance facility. In addition, one part of the company acutally dry leases Kin Airs to companies.
Whether TAB has a 135 or not, it is a flight school period. Even if they took a passenger, they are not taking anything from anybody because they only exist as a flight school/
I think the reason that they even messed with the 135 was to have a place where their students could go and work for pay if they were not picked up immediately in a regional dea.
bobbysamd
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Paying the TAB
OK, Pub, it's always valuable to receive information from all sides.
The question remains is if it is worth it for a rated pilot to shell out a minimum of $46,500 for what is the bottom-line of the course, 100 hours of King Air time, for a crapshoot at a job, given current hiring (I was looking at the Commercial Multi Engine/Instrument to Job option). I don't count the 100 hours of sim time. So, that is $465 an hour for King Air time. How much of this time is legal PIC? Is any of it? I'd check it out thoroughly before committing that kind of money.
The place also has the six-month Zero time to a job (357 hrs total) for a minimum of $63,711. For one thing, unless you graduate from MAPD you won't get a regional job with 350 hours - under any circumstances, even in good times. I see nowhere where any part of the program is Part 141. For that kind of money, I would want at least part of it to be 141 with self-examining authority. Not seeing that tells me I have to visit a DE periodically - and pay him/her his $200-$400 every time. Four practical tests (Private, Instrument, Commercial-Multi) at maybe $300 a pop average is another $1.2K minimum, assuming the DE doesn't charge double for the Commercial-Multi-Instrument. I can get a full 141 program at MAPD with a real chance to interview with Mesa Airlines for less money.
Frankly, I think TAB is a noble concept - to train new pilots to airline standards and get them turbine time ab initio. I wanted to be a flight instructor in that kind of environment. However, for the pilot/consumer, it needs to be considered carefully, with the "pilot shortage" malarkey and airline connections claims disregarded.
Once again, good luck with your decision.
PS-I don't doubt, Pub, that the place is quality; how can any place that sells me 100 hours of Kingair time be anything but quality? Just the same, for the reasons I enumerated above, one would have to think about it carefully to ensure one is leaving with skills that can be marketed immediately.
OK, Pub, it's always valuable to receive information from all sides.
The question remains is if it is worth it for a rated pilot to shell out a minimum of $46,500 for what is the bottom-line of the course, 100 hours of King Air time, for a crapshoot at a job, given current hiring (I was looking at the Commercial Multi Engine/Instrument to Job option). I don't count the 100 hours of sim time. So, that is $465 an hour for King Air time. How much of this time is legal PIC? Is any of it? I'd check it out thoroughly before committing that kind of money.
The place also has the six-month Zero time to a job (357 hrs total) for a minimum of $63,711. For one thing, unless you graduate from MAPD you won't get a regional job with 350 hours - under any circumstances, even in good times. I see nowhere where any part of the program is Part 141. For that kind of money, I would want at least part of it to be 141 with self-examining authority. Not seeing that tells me I have to visit a DE periodically - and pay him/her his $200-$400 every time. Four practical tests (Private, Instrument, Commercial-Multi) at maybe $300 a pop average is another $1.2K minimum, assuming the DE doesn't charge double for the Commercial-Multi-Instrument. I can get a full 141 program at MAPD with a real chance to interview with Mesa Airlines for less money.
Frankly, I think TAB is a noble concept - to train new pilots to airline standards and get them turbine time ab initio. I wanted to be a flight instructor in that kind of environment. However, for the pilot/consumer, it needs to be considered carefully, with the "pilot shortage" malarkey and airline connections claims disregarded.
Once again, good luck with your decision.
PS-I don't doubt, Pub, that the place is quality; how can any place that sells me 100 hours of Kingair time be anything but quality? Just the same, for the reasons I enumerated above, one would have to think about it carefully to ensure one is leaving with skills that can be marketed immediately.
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TriDriver
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chperpilot
Thanks for you comments about the TAB F/Os you've flown with. We think we turn out a pretty good airline ready F/O.
When TAB Express was starting their progarm about 1-1/2 years ago, they looked at the airline industry and tried to figure out what kind of pilot a regional airline would want to hire. Typically, the pool of pilots ready to be hired at a regional had a background of going through their initial training, then being a CFI until they had about 1500 hours, very little of it ME, virtually none of it multi-crew. TAB decided an airline would like a pilot that has flown multi-engine, mult-crew, pressurized, turbine equipment, in a simulated airline type operation. That's the program they set up.
Instead of the advanced training part of the program being getting a CFI, TAB's advanced training is the King Air. It's a good concept - basically just like the military where they train you to fly your aircraft you're going to fly in your tactical unit. A military trained pilot gets into the right seat of a P-3/C-130/C-17, etc. or right into a single seat jet, when they've only got a couple hundred hours.
The STUDENT'S problem at TAB is, when a student finishes up, they don't have the CFI, which is the most common entry level aviation job. The traditional measure of a pilot is hours, and no matter how good a pilot coming out of any program is, if they only have 400 to 500 hours, they are not considered serioulsy for employment at a regional airline.
The COMPANY'S problem at TAB is that, even though they turn out a good product, nobody (except Colgan) knows it. They don't have any kind of track record with the industy yet. If the students don't get hired, the word will get out and they won't have any new enrollment.
Again, thanks for your comments about your TAB trained F/Os at Colgan.
Bob the TriDriver
Thanks for you comments about the TAB F/Os you've flown with. We think we turn out a pretty good airline ready F/O.
When TAB Express was starting their progarm about 1-1/2 years ago, they looked at the airline industry and tried to figure out what kind of pilot a regional airline would want to hire. Typically, the pool of pilots ready to be hired at a regional had a background of going through their initial training, then being a CFI until they had about 1500 hours, very little of it ME, virtually none of it multi-crew. TAB decided an airline would like a pilot that has flown multi-engine, mult-crew, pressurized, turbine equipment, in a simulated airline type operation. That's the program they set up.
Instead of the advanced training part of the program being getting a CFI, TAB's advanced training is the King Air. It's a good concept - basically just like the military where they train you to fly your aircraft you're going to fly in your tactical unit. A military trained pilot gets into the right seat of a P-3/C-130/C-17, etc. or right into a single seat jet, when they've only got a couple hundred hours.
The STUDENT'S problem at TAB is, when a student finishes up, they don't have the CFI, which is the most common entry level aviation job. The traditional measure of a pilot is hours, and no matter how good a pilot coming out of any program is, if they only have 400 to 500 hours, they are not considered serioulsy for employment at a regional airline.
The COMPANY'S problem at TAB is that, even though they turn out a good product, nobody (except Colgan) knows it. They don't have any kind of track record with the industy yet. If the students don't get hired, the word will get out and they won't have any new enrollment.
Again, thanks for your comments about your TAB trained F/Os at Colgan.
Bob the TriDriver
publisher
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I would like to consider TAB as a school i would go to for my training, but taking out a loan the best part of $80,000 during these times, i feel would be a big mistake.
I really wonder after you have completed your flight training what type of jobs you would be applying for at 400hrs TT even at the best of times as stated above you would be very luckly to get a job. The lowest i have heard was 700hrs TT.
And how many students who have completed this course have actually got a F/O job.
Any students from TAB out there care to comment .
I really wonder after you have completed your flight training what type of jobs you would be applying for at 400hrs TT even at the best of times as stated above you would be very luckly to get a job. The lowest i have heard was 700hrs TT.
And how many students who have completed this course have actually got a F/O job.
Any students from TAB out there care to comment .
kilomike
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- Nov 26, 2001
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One very expensive flight school!!
I could not fathom borrowing $80,000 to attend a flight school! That sounds awfully expensive and with the industry being in so much difficulty these days a real gamble. The return on investment particularly if one looks at regional airline salaries for pilots is a very poor ROI. I am an electrical apprentice with the IBEW and I make more than many commuter pilots do (and I think this is shameful!). Those pilots are responsible for people's lives. Yes, I too am responsible--for wiring a place properly so it does not burn down but still!!!
I could not fathom borrowing $80,000 to attend a flight school! That sounds awfully expensive and with the industry being in so much difficulty these days a real gamble. The return on investment particularly if one looks at regional airline salaries for pilots is a very poor ROI. I am an electrical apprentice with the IBEW and I make more than many commuter pilots do (and I think this is shameful!). Those pilots are responsible for people's lives. Yes, I too am responsible--for wiring a place properly so it does not burn down but still!!!
Timebuilder
Entrepreneur
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- Nov 25, 2001
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Course Prices
The course itself is only $62,000 but after living costs, food, fees and everything that goes with it, i was told that most students take out the max loan which is $80,000
Again the same was total to me with ATA, students take out the max loan $80,000
It is very expensive, but when you look at the cost only and see FSI is costing $60,000+ just for the cost for there Career Course, overall Tab express it does not look like a bad deal considering your getting time in a kingair.
The course itself is only $62,000 but after living costs, food, fees and everything that goes with it, i was told that most students take out the max loan which is $80,000
Again the same was total to me with ATA, students take out the max loan $80,000
It is very expensive, but when you look at the cost only and see FSI is costing $60,000+ just for the cost for there Career Course, overall Tab express it does not look like a bad deal considering your getting time in a kingair.
Timebuilder
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here is somthing to think about
Take out a loan for $80,000.00
I factored in 150months for the term of the loan to repay it back assuming you can get that time
Simple Interest Rate 1% ( yes i know its impossible)
Your Monthly Payment Will Be $666
Your Total Interest Cost Will Be $920006.10
Heres what is surprising even with a 1% interest rate.......
Minimum annual salary
to handle these payments: $1000006.00
makes me pissed when i see GA F/Os making $8/hr how do TAB ATA ever expect you to repay a loan like that back. makes me madd they expect you to take out so much and earn so little ;(
again assuming yr lucky to get a job.
Take out a loan for $80,000.00
I factored in 150months for the term of the loan to repay it back assuming you can get that time
Simple Interest Rate 1% ( yes i know its impossible)
Your Monthly Payment Will Be $666
Your Total Interest Cost Will Be $920006.10
Heres what is surprising even with a 1% interest rate.......
Minimum annual salary
to handle these payments: $1000006.00
makes me pissed when i see GA F/Os making $8/hr how do TAB ATA ever expect you to repay a loan like that back. makes me madd they expect you to take out so much and earn so little ;(
again assuming yr lucky to get a job.
here's something to think about, and this is just something I heard, but from a reliable source, the good old owner of TAB is from Gulfstream Airlines, but was fired from there due to unwise decision making when it came to handling new students money, keeping a little from himself. Just reading this and seeing they are applying for a 135, he could be thinking about trying to duplicate Gulfstreams ways.
I have looked a little into it actually, thanks for the advice, and here's something else that I know for a fact happens there, the students flying up front with an instructor in the back and all 3 logging the time, tell me, how does one log flight time sitting in the back?? My logbook doesn't have a section for passenger flight time, maybe theirs does.
TriDriver
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sharpeye
Who says I'm logging time when I'm sitting in the back????
I don't need to pad my logbook. I've got an airline job and just about to retire. I get paid by TAB for the block time we fly whether I sit in front or in back.
I do sit up front when we do a one-on-one fam flight. The students get a bunch of simulator time, then they get 11 hours in the actual King Air where it's just one student and me. We do takeoffs/landings, airwork, steep turns, stalls, emergency descents, single engine work (including simulated SE landings) and probably a couple of instrument approaches during that phase. Then they go to the simulator again. When they come back for the x-country flying is when I fly in the back.
I'm up front for the first tenth and last tenth hour of each leg. I sit up front during takeoffs and landings for insurance purposes. Enroute, it's 2 fully qualified multi-engine pilots who have had a King Air checkout flying with each other in an airline type operation. There's just no pax aboard but me and maybe another student doing an observation flight.
Again, I don't need to log time. The program does not even require us airline types who fly the x-country flights to have a CFI.
I do a lot of talking when I'm back there. I'm trying to throw out a lot of info on how things are done in the airlines, and just as much aviation stuff as I can talk about when the students up front aren't too busy with ATC.
Bob the TriDriver
Who says I'm logging time when I'm sitting in the back????
I don't need to pad my logbook. I've got an airline job and just about to retire. I get paid by TAB for the block time we fly whether I sit in front or in back.
I do sit up front when we do a one-on-one fam flight. The students get a bunch of simulator time, then they get 11 hours in the actual King Air where it's just one student and me. We do takeoffs/landings, airwork, steep turns, stalls, emergency descents, single engine work (including simulated SE landings) and probably a couple of instrument approaches during that phase. Then they go to the simulator again. When they come back for the x-country flying is when I fly in the back.
I'm up front for the first tenth and last tenth hour of each leg. I sit up front during takeoffs and landings for insurance purposes. Enroute, it's 2 fully qualified multi-engine pilots who have had a King Air checkout flying with each other in an airline type operation. There's just no pax aboard but me and maybe another student doing an observation flight.
Again, I don't need to log time. The program does not even require us airline types who fly the x-country flights to have a CFI.
I do a lot of talking when I'm back there. I'm trying to throw out a lot of info on how things are done in the airlines, and just as much aviation stuff as I can talk about when the students up front aren't too busy with ATC.
Bob the TriDriver
TriDriver
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310
Sorry I haven't been on the forum, but I just got back from a 4-day trip. I'm gonna need to start taking my computer with me again!!
You're fairly high time. If you had a CFI, you could get a job and be up over 1500 or 2000 hours in another year. With your ME time, you'd then be a good prospect for a regional airline job. That might be where you'd spend your career, seeing as you don't have a college degree. Nothing the matter with that!! The regionals fly great equipment, a lot are going to more and more RJ's, the pay is good, and the contracts are getting better year by year. The retirement is generally not as good as the majors, but if you fund your 401k, you'd be in good shape when you retire.
Without the CFI, the TAB Express King Air flying might give you an edge. As I said in an earlier post, they don't have much of a track record yet. As the word gets out and other airlines hear of Colgan's success with the several TAB pilots they've hired, maybe more companies will be looking for TAB trained pilots.
You just have to look at the programs available out there and decide what's right for you.
If you come to TAB, I look forward to flying with ya'!!!
TriDriver Bob
Sorry I haven't been on the forum, but I just got back from a 4-day trip. I'm gonna need to start taking my computer with me again!!
You're fairly high time. If you had a CFI, you could get a job and be up over 1500 or 2000 hours in another year. With your ME time, you'd then be a good prospect for a regional airline job. That might be where you'd spend your career, seeing as you don't have a college degree. Nothing the matter with that!! The regionals fly great equipment, a lot are going to more and more RJ's, the pay is good, and the contracts are getting better year by year. The retirement is generally not as good as the majors, but if you fund your 401k, you'd be in good shape when you retire.
Without the CFI, the TAB Express King Air flying might give you an edge. As I said in an earlier post, they don't have much of a track record yet. As the word gets out and other airlines hear of Colgan's success with the several TAB pilots they've hired, maybe more companies will be looking for TAB trained pilots.
You just have to look at the programs available out there and decide what's right for you.
If you come to TAB, I look forward to flying with ya'!!!
TriDriver Bob
TriDriver
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c601
Yeah, the TAB full program from no prior flying experience to graduation is quite expensive. But, as you pointed out, I don't think it's out of line with the other "academies". You're just getting a different kind of training - King Air instead of CFI.
Take a look at http://www.erau.edu/0Universe/05/newsreleases/2002/firstofficer.html
This is a brand new Embry-Riddle prgram they are just starting up in St Augustine, FL. They call it FOFT (First Officer Flt Trng), and I think it's something like TAB is doing. One thing that is required is a 4 year degree. I don't think there is any King Air flying, but I believe you would get a bunch of either turbo-prop or jet simulator time.
I don't think students going through the Riddle program will get a CFI. I think it's just a bunch of mult-crew/CRM stuff. Maybe somebody can check out the price of that program and give us a post. It would be interesting to see how it compares with TAB and others.
Bob the TriDriver
Yeah, the TAB full program from no prior flying experience to graduation is quite expensive. But, as you pointed out, I don't think it's out of line with the other "academies". You're just getting a different kind of training - King Air instead of CFI.
Take a look at http://www.erau.edu/0Universe/05/newsreleases/2002/firstofficer.html
This is a brand new Embry-Riddle prgram they are just starting up in St Augustine, FL. They call it FOFT (First Officer Flt Trng), and I think it's something like TAB is doing. One thing that is required is a 4 year degree. I don't think there is any King Air flying, but I believe you would get a bunch of either turbo-prop or jet simulator time.
I don't think students going through the Riddle program will get a CFI. I think it's just a bunch of mult-crew/CRM stuff. Maybe somebody can check out the price of that program and give us a post. It would be interesting to see how it compares with TAB and others.
Bob the TriDriver
bobbysamd
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 5,710
Riddle P-F-T v. TAB
This thread addresses this new Riddle "program."
I know a little about Riddle, having worked at ERAU in Prescott. Frankly, if my flight training choices boiled down to this new Riddle program and TAB, I'd pay the TAB. At least with TAB, you get some turbine time. Although you pay for the turbine time, it's better than no turbine time at all.
The way ERAU invokes the pilot shortage sophism during these times of slow economy and furloughs continues to slay me.
This thread addresses this new Riddle "program."
I know a little about Riddle, having worked at ERAU in Prescott. Frankly, if my flight training choices boiled down to this new Riddle program and TAB, I'd pay the TAB. At least with TAB, you get some turbine time. Although you pay for the turbine time, it's better than no turbine time at all.
The way ERAU invokes the pilot shortage sophism during these times of slow economy and furloughs continues to slay me.
TriDriver
Active member
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2002
- Posts
- 43
sharpeye
Regarding "logging time while sitting in the back", I'm in the very fortunate position of not needing flight time. I instruct at TAB because I've loved my flying career and I'm there to try to mentor the next generation of airline pilots in the beginning of their career. I hope I help them get off to a good start.
When you get to a major airline that flies internationally, you will find that on the 2 pilot airplanes (747-400, 777, 767, MD-11, etc.) that a flight more than 8 hours requires a relief pilot (usually an additional first officer). When you fly an 8+ hour flight, everybody gets a couple hour break in the back during that time. When you fly more than 12 hours, there will be a complete augmented crew (2 captains and 2 first officers) on the flight.
Fortunately, when you get to that point in your career, you're not worried about a couple more hours in the logbook. A lot of pilots don't even keep a logbook at that stage in their career. You can always get a printout of your airline time from your company's computer (and it will show block time to include that time you were eating/sleeping in the back!). Airline types who do some Gen Av flying probably keep a logbook like I do.
At any rate, at my airline, all I'm interested in is getting paid for all that time my company requires me to be on the plane. You do get paid for sitting in the back on your international relief break, or even during deadheads where you're just riding around in the back because the company needs to reposition you somewhere.
I hope you all get to that point in your career where you're worried about the pay and not flight time for the logbook!!!
Good luck to everybody getting to that point sooner rather than later!!
TriDriver Bob
Regarding "logging time while sitting in the back", I'm in the very fortunate position of not needing flight time. I instruct at TAB because I've loved my flying career and I'm there to try to mentor the next generation of airline pilots in the beginning of their career. I hope I help them get off to a good start.
When you get to a major airline that flies internationally, you will find that on the 2 pilot airplanes (747-400, 777, 767, MD-11, etc.) that a flight more than 8 hours requires a relief pilot (usually an additional first officer). When you fly an 8+ hour flight, everybody gets a couple hour break in the back during that time. When you fly more than 12 hours, there will be a complete augmented crew (2 captains and 2 first officers) on the flight.
Fortunately, when you get to that point in your career, you're not worried about a couple more hours in the logbook. A lot of pilots don't even keep a logbook at that stage in their career. You can always get a printout of your airline time from your company's computer (and it will show block time to include that time you were eating/sleeping in the back!). Airline types who do some Gen Av flying probably keep a logbook like I do.
At any rate, at my airline, all I'm interested in is getting paid for all that time my company requires me to be on the plane. You do get paid for sitting in the back on your international relief break, or even during deadheads where you're just riding around in the back because the company needs to reposition you somewhere.
I hope you all get to that point in your career where you're worried about the pay and not flight time for the logbook!!!
Good luck to everybody getting to that point sooner rather than later!!
TriDriver Bob
172driver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2002
- Posts
- 744
TriDriver,
That's great that you don't need the flight time and I admire you for still loving aviation enough at the end of your career to instruct. However, as sharpeye pointed out, there are many schools around this country where 3 pilots log PIC time simultaneously, including the one in the back. Quite possibly he was wrong about your school but you haven't addressed that. Are there other CFI's there who sit in the back? If so, do they log their time back there? They may not be in such a fortunate position as you and that PIC turbine time is golden if you're at the beginning of a career rather than the end, as you know. If you personally don't log it, do you consider it to be PIC time? Would you log it if you needed it?
It bothers me that people who may be interviewing against me use this practice of logging time. Maybe it doesn't belong in this thread, maybe it does. But...for the pilots who do log PIC in the backseat...why not just stay home and write it in...save yourself the time.
That's great that you don't need the flight time and I admire you for still loving aviation enough at the end of your career to instruct. However, as sharpeye pointed out, there are many schools around this country where 3 pilots log PIC time simultaneously, including the one in the back. Quite possibly he was wrong about your school but you haven't addressed that. Are there other CFI's there who sit in the back? If so, do they log their time back there? They may not be in such a fortunate position as you and that PIC turbine time is golden if you're at the beginning of a career rather than the end, as you know. If you personally don't log it, do you consider it to be PIC time? Would you log it if you needed it?
It bothers me that people who may be interviewing against me use this practice of logging time. Maybe it doesn't belong in this thread, maybe it does. But...for the pilots who do log PIC in the backseat...why not just stay home and write it in...save yourself the time.
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