Tab express

[chperplt]

Minimum annual salary to handle these payments: $1000006.00

How did you figure this?


Why did you chose 120 months? The AD says you can pay in over 20 years.. That's 240 months..

 

[sharpeye]

here's something to think about, and this is just something I heard, but from a reliable source, the good old owner of TAB is from Gulfstream Airlines, but was fired from there due to unwise decision making when it came to handling new students money, keeping a little from himself. Just reading this and seeing they are applying for a 135, he could be thinking about trying to duplicate Gulfstreams ways.

 

[publisher]

check your info

Check your information out sharpeye!

 

[sharpeye]

I have looked a little into it actually, thanks for the advice, and here's something else that I know for a fact happens there, the students flying up front with an instructor in the back and all 3 logging the time, tell me, how does one log flight time sitting in the back?? My logbook doesn't have a section for passenger flight time, maybe theirs does.

 

[TriDriver]

sharpeye

Who says I'm logging time when I'm sitting in the back????

I don't need to pad my logbook. I've got an airline job and just about to retire. I get paid by TAB for the block time we fly whether I sit in front or in back.

I do sit up front when we do a one-on-one fam flight. The students get a bunch of simulator time, then they get 11 hours in the actual King Air where it's just one student and me. We do takeoffs/landings, airwork, steep turns, stalls, emergency descents, single engine work (including simulated SE landings) and probably a couple of instrument approaches during that phase. Then they go to the simulator again. When they come back for the x-country flying is when I fly in the back.

I'm up front for the first tenth and last tenth hour of each leg. I sit up front during takeoffs and landings for insurance purposes. Enroute, it's 2 fully qualified multi-engine pilots who have had a King Air checkout flying with each other in an airline type operation. There's just no pax aboard but me and maybe another student doing an observation flight.

Again, I don't need to log time. The program does not even require us airline types who fly the x-country flights to have a CFI.

I do a lot of talking when I'm back there. I'm trying to throw out a lot of info on how things are done in the airlines, and just as much aviation stuff as I can talk about when the students up front aren't too busy with ATC.

Bob the TriDriver

 

[TriDriver]

310

Sorry I haven't been on the forum, but I just got back from a 4-day trip. I'm gonna need to start taking my computer with me again!!

You're fairly high time. If you had a CFI, you could get a job and be up over 1500 or 2000 hours in another year. With your ME time, you'd then be a good prospect for a regional airline job. That might be where you'd spend your career, seeing as you don't have a college degree. Nothing the matter with that!! The regionals fly great equipment, a lot are going to more and more RJ's, the pay is good, and the contracts are getting better year by year. The retirement is generally not as good as the majors, but if you fund your 401k, you'd be in good shape when you retire.

Without the CFI, the TAB Express King Air flying might give you an edge. As I said in an earlier post, they don't have much of a track record yet. As the word gets out and other airlines hear of Colgan's success with the several TAB pilots they've hired, maybe more companies will be looking for TAB trained pilots.

You just have to look at the programs available out there and decide what's right for you.

If you come to TAB, I look forward to flying with ya'!!!

TriDriver Bob

 

[TriDriver]

c601

Yeah, the TAB full program from no prior flying experience to graduation is quite expensive. But, as you pointed out, I don't think it's out of line with the other "academies". You're just getting a different kind of training - King Air instead of CFI.

Take a look at http://www.erau.edu/0Universe/05/newsreleases/2002/firstofficer.html

This is a brand new Embry-Riddle prgram they are just starting up in St Augustine, FL. They call it FOFT (First Officer Flt Trng), and I think it's something like TAB is doing. One thing that is required is a 4 year degree. I don't think there is any King Air flying, but I believe you would get a bunch of either turbo-prop or jet simulator time.

I don't think students going through the Riddle program will get a CFI. I think it's just a bunch of mult-crew/CRM stuff. Maybe somebody can check out the price of that program and give us a post. It would be interesting to see how it compares with TAB and others.

Bob the TriDriver

 

[bobbysamd]

Riddle P-F-T v. TAB

This thread addresses this new Riddle "program."

I know a little about Riddle, having worked at ERAU in Prescott. Frankly, if my flight training choices boiled down to this new Riddle program and TAB, I'd pay the TAB. At least with TAB, you get some turbine time. Although you pay for the turbine time, it's better than no turbine time at all.

The way ERAU invokes the pilot shortage sophism during these times of slow economy and furloughs continues to slay me.

 

[TriDriver]

sharpeye

Regarding "logging time while sitting in the back", I'm in the very fortunate position of not needing flight time. I instruct at TAB because I've loved my flying career and I'm there to try to mentor the next generation of airline pilots in the beginning of their career. I hope I help them get off to a good start.

When you get to a major airline that flies internationally, you will find that on the 2 pilot airplanes (747-400, 777, 767, MD-11, etc.) that a flight more than 8 hours requires a relief pilot (usually an additional first officer). When you fly an 8+ hour flight, everybody gets a couple hour break in the back during that time. When you fly more than 12 hours, there will be a complete augmented crew (2 captains and 2 first officers) on the flight.

Fortunately, when you get to that point in your career, you're not worried about a couple more hours in the logbook. A lot of pilots don't even keep a logbook at that stage in their career. You can always get a printout of your airline time from your company's computer (and it will show block time to include that time you were eating/sleeping in the back!). Airline types who do some Gen Av flying probably keep a logbook like I do.

At any rate, at my airline, all I'm interested in is getting paid for all that time my company requires me to be on the plane. You do get paid for sitting in the back on your international relief break, or even during deadheads where you're just riding around in the back because the company needs to reposition you somewhere.

I hope you all get to that point in your career where you're worried about the pay and not flight time for the logbook!!!

Good luck to everybody getting to that point sooner rather than later!!

TriDriver Bob

 

[172driver]

TriDriver,

That's great that you don't need the flight time and I admire you for still loving aviation enough at the end of your career to instruct. However, as sharpeye pointed out, there are many schools around this country where 3 pilots log PIC time simultaneously, including the one in the back. Quite possibly he was wrong about your school but you haven't addressed that. Are there other CFI's there who sit in the back? If so, do they log their time back there? They may not be in such a fortunate position as you and that PIC turbine time is golden if you're at the beginning of a career rather than the end, as you know. If you personally don't log it, do you consider it to be PIC time? Would you log it if you needed it?

It bothers me that people who may be interviewing against me use this practice of logging time. Maybe it doesn't belong in this thread, maybe it does. But...for the pilots who do log PIC in the backseat...why not just stay home and write it in...save yourself the time.

 

[TriDriver]

172driver

Don't worry, there aren't any guys sitting in the back of TAB King Airs logging time to take a job away from you. Every TAB King Air instructor is a retired/furloughed/active 121 airline pilot already. That is for insurance purposes and probably for "sales/marketing" spin.

When I get a line-check at my airline, the check airman sits on the jumpseat and observes me and the first officer fly a regular flight. I don't know whether he "logs" flight time in his logbook or not. But, he sure does get paid for it. That's sort of what I'm doing at TAB.

I reviewed a bunch of info on the FAA website, particularly a big file of FAQ's, and here are some pertinent sections.

Bob the TriDriver



Reference §61.1(b)(12)(iii), YES, that time an authorized instructor gives training in an aircraft,
flight simulator, or flight training device may be credited as pilot time. Note, “pilot time” and “flight time” are
NOT synonymous.

There is quite a lot of discussion in the FAQ's about "being" PIC as opposed to "logging" PIC, as well as the above "pilot time" vs. "flight time" discussion.

Sec. 61.195
Flight instructor limitations and qualifications.
A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is subject to the following limitations:
(a) ...

(g) Position in aircraft and required pilot stations for providing flight training.
(1) A flight instructor must perform all training from in an aircraft that complies with the requirements of Sec. 91.109 of this chapter.
(2) A flight instructor who provides flight training for a pilot certificate or rating issued under this part must provide that flight training in an aircraft that meets the following requirements--
(i) The aircraft must have at least two pilot stations and be of the same category, class, and type, if appropriate, that applies to the pilot certificate or rating sought.

This would seem to indicate that to log CFI time, you must be at a pilot station.

Here's an interesting discussion about "Safety Pilot" time, that says the FAA agrees that, without a doubt, a safety pilot is a "required crewmember" and both pilots can log PIC:

QUESTION: Is it true that a qualified pilot can log pilot-in-command time for all flight time during which he
acts as a required safety pilot per 14 CFR §91.109?
ANSWER: Yes, the safety pilot can log the time as PIC time in accordance with §61.51(e)(ii) which states ". .
. regulations under which the flight is conducted."

QUESTION: In the December 1997 edition of "AOPA PILOT," specifically page 22, "AOPA ACCESS," the
question was asked: "If I am flying as a safety pilot, can I log that time as pilot in command?" AOPA's answer is:
"Yes. There had been talk during the rewrite process of changing this to specify only second-in-command time, but
the final rule left logable safety pilot PIC time intact. Requirements remain being rated in category and class. You
are allowed to log safety pilot PIC time because your eyes are required for aircraft safety and therefore you become
a required crewmember. The pilot under the hood can also log PIC time as 'sole' manipulator of the controls."
§61.51(f)(2) seems pretty clear about safety pilots logging SIC rather than PIC time. What does AOPA know that
we don't???
ANSWER: Yes, the time can be logged as PIC. Reference §61.51(e)(1)(ii): The safety pilot, who meets the
qualifications set forth in §91.109(b) may log it as PIC time because §61.51(e)(1)(ii) states, in pertinent part, ". . .
the regulations under which the flight is conducted. Note, we say "may" but he "may" prefer to log it as SIC time.
Your understanding is probably based on the preamble discussion on page 16250, middle column, of the Federal
Register (62 FR 16250; April 4, 1997). We would highly recommend that you also read the preamble discussion
on page 16250, first column, of the Federal Register (62 FR 16250; April 4, 1997).
Reference §61.51(e)(1)(i): The other pilot manipulating the controls, and who meets the qualifications set forth in
§91.109(a)(2) and (b)(3)(ii) may log it as PIC time because §61.51(e)(1)(i) states, in pertinent part, "Is the sole
manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated;"

Another interesting point-of-view was brought up by the FAA in this statement:

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.159(a)(4); In answering these questions below, I am going to preference my answers by
saying that in all the FARs, there has to be an acceptance that most pilots are going to be honest. It is a fact that
most of our rules are based on pilots being agreeable to operate in good faith and in compliance with the FARs and
are people of integrity. And I believe I am safe in saying that there are very, very few fraud enforcement cases in
comparison to the pilot population at large, that most of our pilot population are honest and are people of integrity
(and even our legal data base would prove this to be true).

Also, while it appears a CFI should be at a pilot station, they don't even have to have a medical to log CFI time:

QUESTION: Question regarding 61.51(e)(3) and 61.23(b)(5)-- Can a CFI who is exercising the privileges of a
flight instructor certificate under 61.23(b)(5) log PIC even though he or she does not have a valid medical
certificate.
ANSWER: Ref. §61.51(e)(3): Yes, the CFI may log it as PIC time. As I have stated in the past the rules are
different between "logging PIC time" under §1.1 vs. "acting as the PIC" under §61.51(e)(3). The CFI cannot "act as
the PIC" without a medical certificate, but he or she can certainly "log it as PIC time."

 

[172driver]

I agree that the CFI should be sitting at one of the two required dual pilot stations but the reg does not say that. It says he may give instruction from in an aircraft that meets the 91.109 requirements (dual pilot stations). Some interpret this as the back seat. I would never do it but it is SOP at many large flight schools. I never said Tab did anything like this but was curious.

 

[Diesel]

It's hard not to suppress a chuckle when reading this thread.

A close friend of mine used to work there and we laugh when we see the flying ad.

Let's see tab's safety record out of VRB before they moved.

Landing a couple of them gear up on the runway.

Lost a couple of engines due to poor mx.

A bunch of other stuff happened it's all pretty funny.

BUT now they have airline pilots flying them so it has all changed... Riiiiiggght

 

[TriDriver]

Diesel

I've read on a number of other threads about a lot of other flight schools. A lot of people have opinions on whether a particular training outfit has gone downhill or has improved over a period of time - and that goes for FBO's and full blown academies.

Gee, is it just possible that TAB has changed some from when it was at VRB a couple years ago? I don't know anything about the place then. The website has a bunch of foreign airline logos on it. I've assumed they may have done some ab-initio training for some of those companies. At any rate, they moved, they changed the program, they've got an entirely different bunch of people there, and I like the concept of the operation, the maintenance, and the students. I don't like the website marketing spin because there is no bridge program with any airline (at this time). I think they did have a hook-up with Eagle last year, but 9-11 did that in.

I'm just a line flying instructor at TAB. I'm not trying to sell it to anybody. I don't need a job anywhere other than my major airline job. If TAB weren't a good place to work, I'd be outa there in a minute. Maybe you think it's a joke that they have some of us airline types there, but the insurance company likes it. You say they had gear-up landings at VRB, and maybe we'll have some at DED. I've never had one in the several hours I've been flying, but I'm certainly not immune to it ever happening to me.

The reason I started posting to this thread was to clear up what I think are some misconceptions about the place. I think you may have some based on what the place was like a couple years ago in a different location.

As far as your contempt for airline pilots being there doing the King Air flying, I'm sorry you feel that way. Your words indicate that you look up from your 172 at a 737 and have no regard for the professionalism of the crew in it. I hope that someday when it's the other way, when you are looking down on a Brasilia or RJ from your 777 cockpit, that you don't discount them as professionals because they're flying a smaller airplane than you. I hope you never lose your love of flying. I would hope all that are as fortunate as I've been in my career might want to continue to instruct and develop the next generation of pilots and contribute to the profession.

TriDriver Bob

 

[C601]

Talk is cheap

Sharpeye

Talk is cheap guy, its very too easy say xyz schools CEO took money from the piggy bank and got fired. If you heard it from a reliable source, whos your source ? The guy who heard it from another good source? Show me some facts.....
If he did do it there would be a paper trail a mile long. But here in S FL nothing suprises me anymore.


Diesel,

I have looked thru the last 5yrs of FAA Accidents iand see 1 or 2 minor accidents with TE nothing more or less than any other flight school. Show me the " Bunch " of other Stuff your talking about Show me the Money !!!!!

Again i want Facts not Fiction

 

[Diesel]

c601- Look up- VEC CORPORATION DBA I asked my buddy about a couple of tail numbers and he emailed me n171te and n190jl

As far as your contempt for airline pilots being there doing the King Air flying, I'm sorry you feel that way. Your words indicate that you look up from your 172 at a 737 and have no regard for the professionalism of the crew in it.

This makes me chuckle. I do look up from a 172 and wonder if I can get some instruction from the cool guy in the airliner.

You said yourself your just trying to clear up some misconceptions of tebex. So am I.

 

[C601]

This aircraft crashed in haiti 1 person killed. At that time N171TE was reg'ed to BPI, whats that got to do with TE ?

291198 Beechcraft Queen Air B90 BPI Aerospace Haïti 0/1 N171TE (1998)


N190JL

Its owned by APA ENTERPRISES INC ????

As far as i can see none of the above aircraft have anything to do with there flight training school side

Stop asking your buddy and YOU !!! show me the facts, becuase right now you might as well be pissing againest the wind lol

 

[1900cpt]

Try this link for N171te

http://www.landings.com/evird.acgi?..._landings/pages/search_nnr.html&nnumber=171te

owned by vec corp. Not sure if they bought it from someone else or not. Just food for thought.