TriDriver
Active member
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2002
- Posts
- 43
172driver
Don't worry, there aren't any guys sitting in the back of TAB King Airs logging time to take a job away from you. Every TAB King Air instructor is a retired/furloughed/active 121 airline pilot already. That is for insurance purposes and probably for "sales/marketing" spin.
When I get a line-check at my airline, the check airman sits on the jumpseat and observes me and the first officer fly a regular flight. I don't know whether he "logs" flight time in his logbook or not. But, he sure does get paid for it. That's sort of what I'm doing at TAB.
I reviewed a bunch of info on the FAA website, particularly a big file of FAQ's, and here are some pertinent sections.
Bob the TriDriver
Reference §61.1(b)(12)(iii), YES, that time an authorized instructor gives training in an aircraft,
flight simulator, or flight training device may be credited as pilot time. Note, “pilot time” and “flight time” are
NOT synonymous.
There is quite a lot of discussion in the FAQ's about "being" PIC as opposed to "logging" PIC, as well as the above "pilot time" vs. "flight time" discussion.
Sec. 61.195
Flight instructor limitations and qualifications.
A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is subject to the following limitations:
(a) ...
(g) Position in aircraft and required pilot stations for providing flight training.
(1) A flight instructor must perform all training from in an aircraft that complies with the requirements of Sec. 91.109 of this chapter.
(2) A flight instructor who provides flight training for a pilot certificate or rating issued under this part must provide that flight training in an aircraft that meets the following requirements--
(i) The aircraft must have at least two pilot stations and be of the same category, class, and type, if appropriate, that applies to the pilot certificate or rating sought.
This would seem to indicate that to log CFI time, you must be at a pilot station.
Here's an interesting discussion about "Safety Pilot" time, that says the FAA agrees that, without a doubt, a safety pilot is a "required crewmember" and both pilots can log PIC:
QUESTION: Is it true that a qualified pilot can log pilot-in-command time for all flight time during which he
acts as a required safety pilot per 14 CFR §91.109?
ANSWER: Yes, the safety pilot can log the time as PIC time in accordance with §61.51(e)(ii) which states ". .
. regulations under which the flight is conducted."
QUESTION: In the December 1997 edition of "AOPA PILOT," specifically page 22, "AOPA ACCESS," the
question was asked: "If I am flying as a safety pilot, can I log that time as pilot in command?" AOPA's answer is:
"Yes. There had been talk during the rewrite process of changing this to specify only second-in-command time, but
the final rule left logable safety pilot PIC time intact. Requirements remain being rated in category and class. You
are allowed to log safety pilot PIC time because your eyes are required for aircraft safety and therefore you become
a required crewmember. The pilot under the hood can also log PIC time as 'sole' manipulator of the controls."
§61.51(f)(2) seems pretty clear about safety pilots logging SIC rather than PIC time. What does AOPA know that
we don't???
ANSWER: Yes, the time can be logged as PIC. Reference §61.51(e)(1)(ii): The safety pilot, who meets the
qualifications set forth in §91.109(b) may log it as PIC time because §61.51(e)(1)(ii) states, in pertinent part, ". . .
the regulations under which the flight is conducted. Note, we say "may" but he "may" prefer to log it as SIC time.
Your understanding is probably based on the preamble discussion on page 16250, middle column, of the Federal
Register (62 FR 16250; April 4, 1997). We would highly recommend that you also read the preamble discussion
on page 16250, first column, of the Federal Register (62 FR 16250; April 4, 1997).
Reference §61.51(e)(1)(i): The other pilot manipulating the controls, and who meets the qualifications set forth in
§91.109(a)(2) and (b)(3)(ii) may log it as PIC time because §61.51(e)(1)(i) states, in pertinent part, "Is the sole
manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated;"
Another interesting point-of-view was brought up by the FAA in this statement:
ANSWER: Ref. § 61.159(a)(4); In answering these questions below, I am going to preference my answers by
saying that in all the FARs, there has to be an acceptance that most pilots are going to be honest. It is a fact that
most of our rules are based on pilots being agreeable to operate in good faith and in compliance with the FARs and
are people of integrity. And I believe I am safe in saying that there are very, very few fraud enforcement cases in
comparison to the pilot population at large, that most of our pilot population are honest and are people of integrity
(and even our legal data base would prove this to be true).
Also, while it appears a CFI should be at a pilot station, they don't even have to have a medical to log CFI time:
QUESTION: Question regarding 61.51(e)(3) and 61.23(b)(5)-- Can a CFI who is exercising the privileges of a
flight instructor certificate under 61.23(b)(5) log PIC even though he or she does not have a valid medical
certificate.
ANSWER: Ref. §61.51(e)(3): Yes, the CFI may log it as PIC time. As I have stated in the past the rules are
different between "logging PIC time" under §1.1 vs. "acting as the PIC" under §61.51(e)(3). The CFI cannot "act as
the PIC" without a medical certificate, but he or she can certainly "log it as PIC time."
Don't worry, there aren't any guys sitting in the back of TAB King Airs logging time to take a job away from you. Every TAB King Air instructor is a retired/furloughed/active 121 airline pilot already. That is for insurance purposes and probably for "sales/marketing" spin.
When I get a line-check at my airline, the check airman sits on the jumpseat and observes me and the first officer fly a regular flight. I don't know whether he "logs" flight time in his logbook or not. But, he sure does get paid for it. That's sort of what I'm doing at TAB.
I reviewed a bunch of info on the FAA website, particularly a big file of FAQ's, and here are some pertinent sections.
Bob the TriDriver
Reference §61.1(b)(12)(iii), YES, that time an authorized instructor gives training in an aircraft,
flight simulator, or flight training device may be credited as pilot time. Note, “pilot time” and “flight time” are
NOT synonymous.
There is quite a lot of discussion in the FAQ's about "being" PIC as opposed to "logging" PIC, as well as the above "pilot time" vs. "flight time" discussion.
Sec. 61.195
Flight instructor limitations and qualifications.
A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is subject to the following limitations:
(a) ...
(g) Position in aircraft and required pilot stations for providing flight training.
(1) A flight instructor must perform all training from in an aircraft that complies with the requirements of Sec. 91.109 of this chapter.
(2) A flight instructor who provides flight training for a pilot certificate or rating issued under this part must provide that flight training in an aircraft that meets the following requirements--
(i) The aircraft must have at least two pilot stations and be of the same category, class, and type, if appropriate, that applies to the pilot certificate or rating sought.
This would seem to indicate that to log CFI time, you must be at a pilot station.
Here's an interesting discussion about "Safety Pilot" time, that says the FAA agrees that, without a doubt, a safety pilot is a "required crewmember" and both pilots can log PIC:
QUESTION: Is it true that a qualified pilot can log pilot-in-command time for all flight time during which he
acts as a required safety pilot per 14 CFR §91.109?
ANSWER: Yes, the safety pilot can log the time as PIC time in accordance with §61.51(e)(ii) which states ". .
. regulations under which the flight is conducted."
QUESTION: In the December 1997 edition of "AOPA PILOT," specifically page 22, "AOPA ACCESS," the
question was asked: "If I am flying as a safety pilot, can I log that time as pilot in command?" AOPA's answer is:
"Yes. There had been talk during the rewrite process of changing this to specify only second-in-command time, but
the final rule left logable safety pilot PIC time intact. Requirements remain being rated in category and class. You
are allowed to log safety pilot PIC time because your eyes are required for aircraft safety and therefore you become
a required crewmember. The pilot under the hood can also log PIC time as 'sole' manipulator of the controls."
§61.51(f)(2) seems pretty clear about safety pilots logging SIC rather than PIC time. What does AOPA know that
we don't???
ANSWER: Yes, the time can be logged as PIC. Reference §61.51(e)(1)(ii): The safety pilot, who meets the
qualifications set forth in §91.109(b) may log it as PIC time because §61.51(e)(1)(ii) states, in pertinent part, ". . .
the regulations under which the flight is conducted. Note, we say "may" but he "may" prefer to log it as SIC time.
Your understanding is probably based on the preamble discussion on page 16250, middle column, of the Federal
Register (62 FR 16250; April 4, 1997). We would highly recommend that you also read the preamble discussion
on page 16250, first column, of the Federal Register (62 FR 16250; April 4, 1997).
Reference §61.51(e)(1)(i): The other pilot manipulating the controls, and who meets the qualifications set forth in
§91.109(a)(2) and (b)(3)(ii) may log it as PIC time because §61.51(e)(1)(i) states, in pertinent part, "Is the sole
manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated;"
Another interesting point-of-view was brought up by the FAA in this statement:
ANSWER: Ref. § 61.159(a)(4); In answering these questions below, I am going to preference my answers by
saying that in all the FARs, there has to be an acceptance that most pilots are going to be honest. It is a fact that
most of our rules are based on pilots being agreeable to operate in good faith and in compliance with the FARs and
are people of integrity. And I believe I am safe in saying that there are very, very few fraud enforcement cases in
comparison to the pilot population at large, that most of our pilot population are honest and are people of integrity
(and even our legal data base would prove this to be true).
Also, while it appears a CFI should be at a pilot station, they don't even have to have a medical to log CFI time:
QUESTION: Question regarding 61.51(e)(3) and 61.23(b)(5)-- Can a CFI who is exercising the privileges of a
flight instructor certificate under 61.23(b)(5) log PIC even though he or she does not have a valid medical
certificate.
ANSWER: Ref. §61.51(e)(3): Yes, the CFI may log it as PIC time. As I have stated in the past the rules are
different between "logging PIC time" under §1.1 vs. "acting as the PIC" under §61.51(e)(3). The CFI cannot "act as
the PIC" without a medical certificate, but he or she can certainly "log it as PIC time."
