TA details

[General Lee]

Look you double breasted(mantitties), toad licking, moron, you voted yes to even bigger RJs. RJs are doing Intl flying as we type. If you were 1/2 as smart as you thing we would have a Grand Unified Theory and time travel. But we don't, we have RJ to international destinations and you. How's your stalker? Got your flak jacket yet? Any one want to guess a headline?

Hahaha. Well, that apparently is NOT the plan. The 717s will be taking those routes over, and your larger RJs will cover out going 50 seater routes. That's the plan, created by management. Sorry.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[PCL_128]

I'd be ok if they kept their longevity, but their seniority?

There's the problem. The next time, when Anderson comes after you and wants to give all of your flying to GoJet, then the GoJet pilots will be saying "no seniority for them!" And then Anderson just moves on to the next carrier. And make no mistake, it never ends. Right now the goal is just to get everyone down to the lowest common denominator. But after he's achieved that, then he has to lower the lowest common denominator so he can begin the process all over again. He'll never be finished until pilots stand up, unified, and stop him. But as long as sentiments like your flourish, regional pilots are screwed.

Joey has the right idea. But unfortunately, he's also right that it will never happen. Which means that the profession is essentially doomed.

 

[Flyer1015]

There's the problem. The next time, when Anderson comes after you and wants to give all of your flying to GoJet, then the GoJet pilots will be saying "no seniority for them!" And then Anderson just moves on to the next carrier. And make no mistake, it never ends. Right now the goal is just to get everyone down to the lowest common denominator. But after he's achieved that, then he has to lower the lowest common denominator so he can begin the process all over again. He'll never be finished until pilots stand up, unified, and stop him. But as long as sentiments like your flourish, regional pilots are screwed.

Joey has the right idea. But unfortunately, he's also right that it will never happen. Which means that the profession is essentially doomed.

Don't worry, ALPA will certainly stop the atrocity. It's not like they're going directly to management to secure a concessionary deal that undercuts other regional airlines.

 

[PCL_128]

Don't worry, ALPA will certainly stop the atrocity. It's not like they're going directly to management to secure a concessionary deal that undercuts other regional airlines.

You still fail to understand that ALPA isn't a nebulous entity, it's a collection of pilots.

 

[Flyer1015]

You still fail to understand that ALPA isn't a nebulous entity, it's a collection of pilots.

I'll go a step further. It's a collection of self-serving pilots looking out for only their own best interests usually without regard for other pilot groups in terms of ramifications of their own actions. This is why DALPA signs a contract that eliminates tons of RJs and brings 717s to Delta. Lots of regional pilots now stand to lose their jobs as a result. A step in the right direction for the industry, but a tough pill for those going unemployed. The same ALPA that allowed this to be signed also represents DCI regionals like Pinnacle. That's BS. My long standing point that Alpa cannot serve two masters, majors and regionals, without totally ****ing up the other. Next, the regional ALPA is now in their self serving interest at 9E, cutting every other DCI carrier like ASA, Skywest, XJet, etc. Once these paycuts are voted in, Delta management will then use it to pressure the remaining DCI carriers for the same kind of rates, or be cut out ala the next Comair. The reason this profession is screwed is that there is NO true unity. If there was, we wouldn't be where we are today. It's all self-serving interests. Not what's best for the entire industry profession.

 

[PCL_128]

I'll go a step further. It's a collection of self-serving pilots looking out for only their own best interests usually without regard for other pilot groups in terms of ramifications of their own actions.

In some cases, possibly. Nevertheless, it's a democracy. Democracy is sometimes messy. But it's better than the alternatives. Want to fix it? Get involved instead of whining.

 

[Flyer1015]

In some cases, possibly. Nevertheless, it's a democracy. Democracy is sometimes messy. But it's better than the alternatives. Want to fix it? Get involved instead of whining.

Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner. Involved with ALPA? That's going to be next to impossible where I am, considering ALPA was the #1 fighting enemy against my current employer when it came to be. Honestly, I don't miss ALPA.

 

[Monster Buck]

Flyer, its easy to stand and criticize but what do you offer as a viable solution? None of the US pilots like it the way it is but its the best we got. The only way to make it better is to have the gold, then we can make the rules. The hard part is that we provide a service to our owners, we are not the owners and at best we negotiate.

BTW ALPA is not perfect and has its flaws but can you tell me any one group that has done more good for this industry? Safety, hour limitations, rest limitations so we don't fly till we drop..... Your airlines group of pilots has done nothing for this industry except gain from the standards largely achieved from the group effort of ALPA. Be humble of your criticism when you have brought nothing to the table other than complaints of others work.

 

[PCL_128]

Exactly.

 

[wscrj]

Well said

 

[twott driver]

So, if we vote no, we will have the judge impose something similar without the sweeteners. If we vote yes, we will at least get some cash.

Check mate al a Delta Airlines.

Yes, but the minute the company exits bankruptcy, you start negotiating a new contract that reflects your worth as a pilot, as opposed to being stuck with a turd sandwich for 7 years before you can even start to re-negotiate.

I don't have a dog in this fight other than the fact that my pay and quality of life will now be under immense pressure.

The sooner people realize that we are pawns and minions of the management elite, and that management compensation and company profits have been at the expense of workers' steadily decreasing compensation and quality of life for the last 30 years, the better. Until then, and when we all finally say enough, expect it to keep getting worse.

Good luck to you guys. I wouldn't wish to be in your position, but fully expect to be in the very near future. I will not do this job for any less than I currently make. That is MY bottom line. I will make my choices when the time arrives.

 

[gojo]

So, if we vote no, we will have the judge impose something similar without the sweeteners. If we vote yes, we will at least get some cash.

Check mate al a Delta Airlines.

If it's voted down, it's lights out for Pinnacle. The judge will not impose. Delta does not the uncertainty of what the next contract would bring once Pinnacle exits bankruptcy.

 

[Flyer1015]

Flyer, its easy to stand and criticize but what do you offer as a viable solution? None of the US pilots like it the way it is but its the best we got. The only way to make it better is to have the gold, then we can make the rules. The hard part is that we provide a service to our owners, we are not the owners and at best we negotiate.

Exactly. There's no gold just like you said. Without it, we have next to no leverage. You fight and negotiate with leverage, and there just isn't any today. And, as you already stated, we are not owners, we just provide services to the owners. My viable solution is one that everyone agrees is impossible. EVER professional airline pilot be on one list, a national ALPA seniority list, that airlines contract from to work at their airline. Like management, when one 20 yr old company expires, you go to the next company with your experience and start at an equal or higher salary. Not start over in a RJ at 20/hr all over again. My solution is one national seniority list. The pilots at failing airlines would love that, but pilots at healthy airline huff and puff against the idea. The logistics are impossible. "it's a pipe dream, not happening." That is my ONLY solution. The ONLY leverage. Other than that, ALPA will continue to be a waste of time, and sell one group out in front of another, and the cycle repeats.

BTW ALPA is not perfect and has its flaws but can you tell me any one group that has done more good for this industry? Safety, hour limitations, rest limitations so we don't fly till we drop.....

Yes I'll agree, but as with most things in aviation, true changes come from blood. There has to be a crash first before changes are implemented. We've pushed for rest/duty regulations for quite some time but it took a Colgan Q crashing in a BUF neighborhood before new rest/duty rules were finally pushed through. Colgan for the longest time was non-ALPA, but that didn't stop the government from reacting to a blood accident.

Your airlines group of pilots has done nothing for this industry except gain from the standards largely achieved from the group effort of ALPA. Be humble of your criticism when you have brought nothing to the table other than complaints of others work.

Excuse you, VX is FULL of pilots who have come from failed ALPA carriers! 20 yr Aloha guys, who watched their ALPA airline get undercut by a greedy CEO of another ALPA regional airline (quite illegally, I might add, considering he first played as a potential buyer of Aloha and then operated 5 RJs below Aloha's operating costs). Or the tons of ALPA Midwest Express pilots we have, and I don't need to re-hash their story here, that's been told true over time and ALPA stood by and completely washed away their careers. Oh that's right, I see Midwest Express E170s now by Republic Corporation. Or Champion. Or ATA. Just who do you think works at VX? RJ pilots? Only recently did VX really start taking RJ people in bulk quantities. For the majority of its operation, VX has hired tons of pilots from failed ALPA carriers as already mentioned. We have guys who spend decades doing volunteer work at their previous failed carrier before coming to VX because their ALPA carrier folded. VX pilots are majority all ex-ALPA, many with volunteer work.

 

[Monster Buck]

Exactly. There's no gold just like you said. Without it, we have next to no leverage. You fight and negotiate with leverage, and there just isn't any today. And, as you already stated, we are not owners, we just provide services to the owners. My viable solution is one that everyone agrees is impossible. EVER professional airline pilot be on one list, a national ALPA seniority list, that airlines contract from to work at their airline. Like management, when one 20 yr old company expires, you go to the next company with your experience and start at an equal or higher salary. Not start over in a RJ at 20/hr all over again. My solution is one national seniority list.

There are too many things wrong with this to list. I'll make it short. The primarary failure of one list equates the skills and years of effort to get on the list. This is endured at a single carrier to some degree but a whole country? To equate a highly trained military pilot with a degree or civilian with a laundry list of ac achievements, clean background and a degree with someone, like in your example of Buffalo(a garbage truck driver from gulfstream with numerous failures), if naive at best.

The pilots at failing airlines would love that, but pilots at healthy airline huff and puff against the idea. The logistics are impossible. "it's a pipe dream, not happening." That is my ONLY solution. The ONLY leverage. Other than that, ALPA will continue to be a waste of time, and sell one group out in front of another, and the cycle repeats.


Yes I'll agree, but as with most things in aviation, true changes come from blood. There has to be a crash first before changes are implemented. We've pushed for rest/duty regulations for quite some time but it took a Colgan Q crashing in a BUF neighborhood before new rest/duty rules were finally pushed through. Colgan for the longest time was non-ALPA, but that didn't stop the government from reacting to a blood accident.

So...what does this have to do with anything?...and who is WE? If not ALPA volunteers who?....VA pilots currently doing work? No its current legacy and regional ALPA pilots on numerous committees.


Excuse you, VX is FULL of pilots who have come from failed ALPA carriers! 20 yr Aloha guys, who watched their ALPA airline get undercut by a greedy CEO of another ALPA regional airline (quite illegally, I might add, considering he first played as a potential buyer of Aloha and then operated 5 RJs below Aloha's operating costs). Or the tons of ALPA Midwest Express pilots we have, and I don't need to re-hash their story here, that's been told true over time and ALPA stood by and completely washed away their careers. Oh that's right, I see Midwest Express E170s now by Republic Corporation. Or Champion. Or ATA. Just who do you think works at VX? RJ pilots? Only recently did VX really start taking RJ people in bulk quantities. For the majority of its operation, VX has hired tons of pilots from failed ALPA carriers as already mentioned. We have guys who spend decades doing volunteer work at their previous failed carrier before coming to VX because their ALPA carrier folded. VX pilots are majority all ex-ALPA, many with volunteer work.

Here again since you quoted my paragraph I assume this is suppose to be an explanation. This is nothing but a list of some pilots hardships, it has nothing to do with my point. How to you come up with this diatribe of nonsense. Yes former ALPA, where they may have done something. Again....name one grass root effort or committee that VA is on(like the thousands of ALPA pilots) to enhance our interest in the areas I mentioned above?

Nothing to do with what I brought up.

 

[Flyer1015]

There are too many things wrong with this to list. I'll make it short. The primarary failure of one list equates the skills and years of effort to get on the list. This is endured at a single carrier to some degree but a whole country? To equate a highly trained military pilot with a degree or civilian with a laundry list of ac achievements, clean background and a degree with someone, like in your example of Buffalo(a garbage truck driver from gulfstream with numerous failures), if naive at best.

That's how the industry works. If today a F16 driver with 2 purple hearts gets hired at Delta at the same time a Mesa RJ pilot gets hired, they are both equals at Delta as far as everything is concerned: seniority, schedules, vacation, pay, etc.

It doesn't really matter where people come from, once you are on the list you are like everyone else. The question is what's the starting point to ensure at least some equality. That's open for discussion. But you asked me and I gave you my opinion. There is no leverage in todays environment for airline pilots. One list would be the only long term leverage.

This is nothing but a list of some pilots hardships, it has nothing to do with my point. How to you come up with this diatribe of nonsense. Yes former ALPA, where they may have done something. Again....name one grass root effort or committee that VA is on(like the thousands of ALPA pilots) to enhance our interest in the areas I mentioned above?

I pointed out to the tons of pilots at VX (not VA) who have spent a large part of their careers as ALPA volunteers for the greater good. The fruits of their labor you and I enjoy today. Same thing with US Airways. When East pulled out of ALPA, ALPA lost a significant portion of their volunteer members on national committees. They left and became USAPA. It was ALPA's loss to lose those experienced volunteers. Whatever their reasons, ALPA no longer served their best interests with that binding arbitration award, and they left. Can you say that US Air pilots are the same as VX? Not contribuiting anything, when in fact, they were actually a backbone for ALPA at one point? As for VX, given the fact that ALPA was enemy #1 to try and stop VX from launching, I don't think ALPA will be coming on property any time soon.