SWAPA TA Failure and downgrades

[Chest Rockwell]

I also looked at the 'no more 2nd yr pay' for probies flying extra as our own little version of a B-scale and to me it was wrong to go along with that, after I enjoyed it so much as a newbie. klr

The second year pay for new hires was always intended to be an incentive for flying extra, not the give-away/pickup that it had evolved into (ask anyone involved in negotiating that aspect of our current CBA, from either side).

 

[shearedshaft]

klr1395

Just curious..... how was the TA going to cost you 20-25 tfp a month? Was it going to just cost you this much or every pilot? If it was going to cost every pilot that much, I estimate that we would need to hire 1000 pilots to cover the schedule (immediately clearing up the lance grandfathering).

Maybe you feel that you would have flown the same block for 20-25 trips less. How was this going to happen? Do you "clear your board" and then work FO trips for captain pay (i.e. VJA)? I don't know if this is your approach, but I'm just trying to understand the "I would've lost tons of pay" rationale.

I, too am curious as to the answer behind this. I kept hearing (and reading) guys saying this was some sort of huge pay cut. For lances, maybe, since they could only fly nine captain periods instead of the twelve or fourteen, but in every other case, it was actually a big pay raise, between 6 and 12%.

"I fear what I don't understand" seems to be the mantra of many of these folks, who also put out nonsense like, "This is going to cost me 25 trips per month." Sure it is, not.

Hey, haven't heard much from the company or union about getting that money in our pockets, it might be time to wave bye-bye to the compensation you thought you could both turn down and still have.

 

[MILPILOT17]

I, too am curious as to the answer behind this. I kept hearing (and reading) guys saying this was some sort of huge pay cut. For lances, maybe, since they could only fly nine captain periods instead of the twelve or fourteen, but in every other case, it was actually a big pay raise, between 6 and 12%.

"I fear what I don't understand" seems to be the mantra of many of these folks, who also put out nonsense like, "This is going to cost me 25 trips per month." Sure it is, not.

Hey, haven't heard much from the company or union about getting that money in our pockets, it might be time to wave bye-bye to the compensation you thought you could both turn down and still have.

Get over it already! It's time to move on.

 

[Ky.BrownBourbn]

I, too am curious as to the answer behind this. I kept hearing (and reading) guys saying this was some sort of huge pay cut. For lances, maybe, since they could only fly nine captain periods instead of the twelve or fourteen, but in every other case, it was actually a big pay raise, between 6 and 12%.

"I fear what I don't understand" seems to be the mantra of many of these folks, who also put out nonsense like, "This is going to cost me 25 trips per month." Sure it is, not.

Hey, haven't heard much from the company or union about getting that money in our pockets, it might be time to wave bye-bye to the compensation you thought you could both turn down and still have.

believe they are referring to limit DTC/ ellitt restrictions and weekend limitations, trading all your 3 days that pay 19.5 minimum (this month, I had 4 and a 3 day for 24 plus) for three days that pay much higher traded all mine up to pay 22 plus but if Ellitt wouldn't have had issues there was higher paying stuff in there, Saw a few that paid 26 when it first opened. Potentially you couldve traded for 3 days that paid 24 ( or higher) and that would net you 20 trips.

Weekend duty time limits on weekend and holidays could restrict you to just weekend pm trips, which generally don't pay as well.

As far as second year pay, I had a few months where half my pay was at second year (44 ph vs. 73 ph). I respect the company's right to close up loopholes (there were others) but restricting captain trips as a lance was not good.

Hope that kinda explains it!
Later,
KBB

 

[Ky.BrownBourbn]

And I agree, it's over, let's move on!
KBB

 

[shearedshaft]

Move on to what? My original point was that a lot of guys thought that they got to have a cake and eat it as well. The recent downgrades showed that no, saving the lances probably isn't going to happen, and now it looks like turning down the compensation part did exactly that: turned down compensation.

And thanks for the ELITT explanation, but I can't come up with 25 trips by trading two 19.5s for 22 paying trips--and the ELITT restrictions wouldn't have stopped that either.

I'm just keeping score:

1. Save the lances...nope
2. Turn down the raises, but still get the raises...looks like no, unless someone is hearing something I'm not hearing
3. Turn down codeshare restrictions but still restrict codeshare...jury's still out.
4. Keep ELITT the same way it was...looks like a score.

 

[StopNTSing]

I'm just keeping score:

1. Save the lances...nope

Yes, some lances may still get downgraded, but it will not happen as a result of their fellow pilots actions. No "blood on our hands." May not seem important to you, but a LOT of us put unity over $$$$. I hate to think of the divisive ramifications that would have had on our group going forward.

2. Turn down the raises, but still get the raises...looks like no, unless someone is hearing something I'm not hearing

I'm reading a letter from GK that makes it sound like he's anxious to get back to the table. Guess I missed the part about pay raises being off the table?

3. Turn down codeshare restrictions but still restrict codeshare...jury's still out.

Agreed....we'll see what we see.

4. Keep ELITT the same way it was...looks like a score.

Yes, chalk one up for the No voters. :beer:

And while we're keeping score. In the wake of a No vote we were assured by the Yes-crowd to experience:

1) Lance program shut down by FAA
Still waiting...it's been three weeks & counting and nary a peep on that front.

2) GK walking away from the table in disgust, and insisting upon starting over from scratch.
Again....his letter sure didn't sound like that to me.

3) Furloughs
Still waiting....as expected, the market will ultimately drive this, not the vote.

4) Arbitration
That one was so patently absurd, it's not even worth a "Told you so"

SS, do you see the corner you have painted yourself into? You lose either way now. If we end up eventually voting in a lesser TA, you've lost $$$ and QOL (as have we all.) If we end up with an improved TA, you'll look like the biggest chump on FI...and that would be no small accomplishment! :smash:

 

[shearedshaft]

I suspect we'll end up with a different TA, I'm not all that worried about looking like a chump if we get a United 2000 contract out of thin air. "Delta plus a dollar!"

Do you honestly think we're going to get some sort of home run when the news just mentioned United, Delta and US Air are in danger of bankruptcy by this winter?

We read Gary's letter differently. I read that the economy is debilitating the company, what did you read?

 

[firstthird]

the sky is falling the sky is falling and all you guys are costing my 1000 a month. heard from sheared on a recent post.

 

[Ky.BrownBourbn]

Move on to what? My original point was that a lot of guys thought that they got to have a cake and eat it as well. The recent downgrades showed that no, saving the lances probably isn't going to happen, and now it looks like turning down the compensation part did exactly that: turned down compensation.

And thanks for the ELITT explanation, but I can't come up with 25 trips by trading two 19.5s for 22 paying trips--and the ELITT restrictions wouldn't have stopped that either.

I'm just keeping score:

1. Save the lances...nope
2. Turn down the raises, but still get the raises...looks like no, unless someone is hearing something I'm not hearing
3. Turn down codeshare restrictions but still restrict codeshare...jury's still out.
4. Keep ELITT the same way it was...looks like a score.

The Ellitt explanation was for people who don't work here, My guess is you are senior enough to be losing 1000 a month, so you have probably been here more than six years and are still an FO, Yes, that was a fat pay raise, If you would have read the rest of my explanation I said that the potential was there that if you traded 4 19.5 trips to 4 24 trips, that would equal about 20 trips...20 trips times 4th year pay is more than $1000 dollars a month (gross)...If I was the Number one FO in Domicile, could hold exactly what I wanted and never used ELLITT I may be upset losing the money but I'm used to having to use ELLITT to make more...

Good luck,
KBB