SWAPA Info packet FEDEXed to all AirTran Pilots

[SWA/FO]

:beer: alright dicko! Now your talking.

:cartman:

 

[Skybus]

Sorry you view it in this context. Quite honestly SWA may not be a good fit for you after all.

Bus

It was from SWAPA . . . . I don't think it will be received as intended . . . . bypassing the Union and sending stuff to the pilots' homes goes against the spirit of negotiations, and smells a little desperate.

Have a great weekend, I'm outta here.

TW:laugh:

 

[FlyinGuy]

All I can say is WOW!!! The response from the AI guys on here absolutely blows me away. I have not talked to many AI guys on the road but if this is 10% of their group, I sure hope SWA is paying attention.

I read one poster state that "when" he becomes a member of SWAPA...like it is a guarantee. Some of you are acting like that just because there is a process agreement that this thing cannot be scrapped. Have you really thought some of these "nuclear" scenarios through? Do you know how easy it would be to split up your operation, give you some online training and start swapping out your 700's for our 300's...then retiring them from the sub company. Integration is not a given. I am not advocating this, but if Gary thinks this is going south he will not hesitate to protect his airline!!! (i.e. Never merging operations)

I know you guys are trying to fight for everything you can get....but really...WOW!!!

 

[DonVerita]

It seems the majority just want to get this done and get over to Southwest and be done with AirTran and ALPA for good.

Bill...you're half right.

Yes, the majority of ATN pilots DO want to get rid of AirTran management. That is undisputably correct.

However, it is a bit uninformed of you to take a jab at ATN ALPA, seeing how you are not part of ALPA or ATN. As an outsider looking in, you probably don't know the history of our former in-house union called the NPA. It was an unmitigated disaster, ruled and fueled by incompentents of the highest order. With ALPA, all of that went away and we were finally represented by a major airline union. We've made great strides with ALPA's help. It hasn't been all roses, but it's clearly been a night and day difference from NPA. And that too, is indisputable.

On to the topic at hand: I received the folder just like the rest of us. I like to refer to it as the intro to the Intro, as I know much more detailed information will be given to us down the road about everything that was listed in there. My problem is not with the content, but rather with the delivery. While I understand that SWAPA and even SWA management sends things directly to your pilots homes from time to time, a mailing such as this; taking place during SLI negotiations, could be interpreted or viewed as an end-run play around ATN ALPA. Whether this is true or not, it is the perception of impropriety that gets the attention. Would it have been that difficult to simply have consulted with ATN ALPA first so that our MEC didn't feel blindsided? A little communication and maybe even some collaboration would have yielded a better and more uniform result IMHO.

DV

 

[GoodTimes]

Don,

Do you know for sure that your negotiating committee was unaware of this info being sent out?

 

[Lear70]

Don,

Do you know for sure that your negotiating committee was unaware of this info being sent out?

Yes, we do know for sure. The Merger Committee gave us a message board update stating that they had no idea and would give us more information as they got it. Then yesterday the MEC sent out a more formal email to everyone, parts of it included below:

July 9, 2011


Fellow Pilots,

By now, presumably all of you have received a FedEx package from SWAPA. No advance notice was given to either the ATN MEC or the ATN Merger Committee that these packages would be sent, and no input was solicited. Furthermore, the MEC has been in contact with Southwest Airlines management.

We can only speculate as to the motivation for this mailing. It would, however, appear by the timing and method of delivery that it was meant to coincide with the Merger Committee's trip to Dallas this coming week, where they have been told to expect a comprehensive briefing from Southwest Airlines, followed by more seniority list integration negotiations...

 

[RLAblows]

All I can say is WOW!!! The response from the AI guys on here absolutely blows me away. I have not talked to many AI guys on the road but if this is 10% of their group, I sure hope SWA is paying attention.

I read one poster state that "when" he becomes a member of SWAPA...like it is a guarantee. Some of you are acting like that just because there is a process agreement that this thing cannot be scrapped. Have you really thought some of these "nuclear" scenarios through? Do you know how easy it would be to split up your operation, give you some online training and start swapping out your 700's for our 300's...then retiring them from the sub company. Integration is not a given. I am not advocating this, but if Gary thinks this is going south he will not hesitate to protect his airline!!! (i.e. Never merging operations)

I know you guys are trying to fight for everything you can get....but really...WOW!!!

Where did you come up with 10%?

 

[Kharma Police]

All I can say is WOW!!! The response from the AI guys on here absolutely blows me away. I have not talked to many AI guys on the road but if this is 10% of their group, I sure hope SWA is paying attention.

I read one poster state that "when" he becomes a member of SWAPA...like it is a guarantee. Some of you are acting like that just because there is a process agreement that this thing cannot be scrapped. Have you really thought some of these "nuclear" scenarios through? Do you know how easy it would be to split up your operation, give you some online training and start swapping out your 700's for our 300's...then retiring them from the sub company. Integration is not a given. I am not advocating this, but if Gary thinks this is going south he will not hesitate to protect his airline!!! (i.e. Never merging operations)

I know you guys are trying to fight for everything you can get....but really...WOW!!!

What is it with you guys and threats? Give it a rest, Gary Kelly I'm sure could summon Godzilla to destroy us if he wanted or cause an earthquake to swallow us or send the locusts. The fact of the matter is this board is BS and the committees are trying to work the process out as agreed. Your union for whatever reason, maybe out of fear or desperation is trying to undermine the process with this little stunt, and The KP no like! If you could remove yourself from your present perspective and think about it objectively, I'm sure you would come to the same conclusion. Look at the timing and if you have access, look at the content.

 

[redflyer65]

From the AAI email..."where they have been told to expect a comprehensive briefing from Southwest Airlines"

I'd say that might be an understatement. SW management can be very tough at negotiations, this might be a watershed event.

For months the AAI guys have been denying that Southwest management was more than just distantly involved in this process and that any 'nuclear options' were just speculation from all the SWAPA pilots. I'd say the curtain is starting to roll back on how involved Gary will be in this process.

 

[madjack]

Ty Webb you are right if you keep ur CP seat I, a senior FO @ SWA won't LOSE anything. But why would I agree to a deal where you GAIN pay, seniority and employment at a better company while I GAIN nothing...who's not sharing the toys? As far as [email protected] COMPANY WAS SOLD....That in the busines world is the antithesis of growth.

 

[Kharma Police]

From the AAI email..."where they have been told to expect a comprehensive briefing from Southwest Airlines"

I'd say that might be an understatement. SW management can be very tough at negotiations, this might be a watershed event.

For months the AAI guys have been denying that Southwest management was more than just distantly involved in this process and that any 'nuclear options' were just speculation from all the SWAPA pilots. I'd say the curtain is starting to roll back on how involved Gary will be in this process.

Talking out of your a$$ again I see. We have always been aware of Southwest Management's involvement in the process. We even have some of our old management stooges in on the meetings for some reason. Try again.

 

[redflyer65]

Talking out of your a$$ again I see. We have always been aware of Southwest Management's involvement in the process. We even have some of our old management stooges in on the meetings for some reason. Try again.

KP,

When you make statements like this, it really shows that you don't know what you are talking about. Your 'old management stooges' aren't in these meetings, but I wouldn't expect a AAI line guy to know anything about it. And that's not meant as a slam at all, just letting you know what is really going on here.

RF

 

[Kharma Police]

KP,

When you make statements like this, it really shows that you don't know what you are talking about. Your 'old management stooges' aren't in these meetings, but I wouldn't expect a AAI line guy to know anything about it. And that's not meant as a slam at all, just letting you know what is really going on here.

RF

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that you had all the answers and inside info. What a relief!, I guess I'll disregard what my Merger Committee says and ask some junior SWA FO on an anonymous message board.

 

[Quiet Flight]

Yes, we do know for sure. The Merger Committee gave us a message board update stating that they had no idea and would give us more information as they got it. Then yesterday the MEC sent out a more formal email to everyone, parts of it included below:

By now, presumably all of you have received a FedEx package from SWAPA. And SWA mgmt. A letter from VP Flt OPS CM was included in the mailing as well.

Just keep talking...

 

[redflyer65]

Don't bother Quiet. They would rather just keep their heads in the sand about where this is headed.

On a positive note, just got off the phone with my Airtran buddy. He said every single person he's talked to is excited about the opportunity to 'just get this done and get on the list'. He didn't have any issues with a SW/SWAPA piece being sent to his house. I think over the past few months he has realized that there is no way that the AAI guys don't have a much higher career earnings (as Lear stated earlier) with this purchase... and much better career expectations.

RF

 

[Max Powers]

Look.. Im not a blow hard union freek at all. But this letter was total BS. It was a letter that compared average and individual pay scales with what we make at AAI vs what we would make at SWA. Its a total BS propaganda that went around the negotiations that are taking place. I will soon be a member of SWAPA, and if this is the type of crap they are going to pull, Im very weary of what we are getting into. Does SWAPA not have any idea what kind of propoganda B.S. AAI pilots had to deal with when we were in contract talks? IMO they are complete IDIOTS for sending this out. Besides the fact that the info is incacurate. Why not compare average pay per year? Probably because they would see that our 7th, 8th, and 9th year guys make very close to what their's do. Hopefully, AAI guys are smart enough to realize that the average AAI FO has been at AAI for 3-4 years vs the average SWA FO who has ben there for 5-7 years. Heck, for that matter, lets compare wages when SWA was 17 years old vs Airtan when they were 17 years old? Doesn't that seem like a fair comparison??

I have a feeling this letter will get the exact opposite intendid reaction! WOW!

I wouldn't worry about it....The fact that SWAPA never consulted ALPA to give them the common and professional courtesy of a heads up. And the fact that SWAPA probably pulled all the strings they had to get the VP of Flt Ops to be quoted says A LOT!!!! They are desperate and have very little leverage and are being managed by corporate. Why else would they extend such resources in the middle of SLI which they claim is an IF not a WHEN.

The facts are: AAI brings 50 737s delivers at prices way below present market value. AAI brings another 40 (that's right 40) cities we can expand to. AAI brings a profitable airline with money in the bank. AAI brings a higher on time arrival, along with better bag handling and near SWA customer level service.

AAI pilots are proud of their accomplishments and aware of what we bring to the table. Can't wait to work together to capture more market share.

Next time...tell your union to at least give our union the courtesy of call if they intend to send us something prior to our inevitable SLI.

 

[madjack]

MP: What do the SWA pilots get out of the deal? And AAI "growth" is a specious argument because your company was sold...keep it real.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Maybe AAI ALPA will send a FEDEX package to my house to explain the losses I can expect as a result of the acquisition.

 

[SWA/FO]

The facts are: AAI brings 50 737s delivers at prices way below present market value. AAI brings another 40 (that's right 40) cities we can expand to. AAI brings a profitable airline with money in the bank. AAI brings a higher on time arrival, along with better bag handling and near SWA customer level service.

Don't forget about the 1,000,000,000 in debt. Airplanes you couldn't pay for so you traded some delivery slots to a Company that could. Flight Crews that you couldn't afford to give a raise to. Stock in the carper.

You guys need to stop sniffing the glue. You're in for a rude awakening. If history is a lesson to all of us, Gary wont put up with this much longer. Think about Morris Air, Muse Air and F9 and about their stories?

The Muse Air guys pushed to hard, backed out of a deal and contacted Herb directly. Herb agreed with the SWAPA seniority offer and decided to shut them down the next day. Some senior guys here, say "they have never seen an airline disappear so quickly.

Morris guys came to the fork in the road and did all the right things, they trusted the Company and SWAPA and look at the results.

F9 went a different route, enough said.

We have some smart people working for us. M/B can't force a CEO to run his company a certain way. Fair and equitable doesn't mean one pilot group gets everything. What are you air tran pilots giving us, southwest pilots? Why would we, want you here? Southwest owns all your toys, it cheaper to hire off the street. You are coming up to the fork in the road, moment. Do not over play your hand, you will be very sad.

Stop taking drugs.

 

[Kharma Police]

Maybe AAI ALPA will send a FEDEX package to my house to explain the losses I can expect as a result of the acquisition.

If they did, I would be pissed at the waste of dues money. Ask a SWAPA rep how much it cost to tell the AirTran pilots what we already knew.

 

[anewunion]

Trouble in paradise ?

 

[Ty Webb]

MP: What do the SWA pilots get out of the deal? And AAI "growth" is a specious argument because your company was sold...keep it real.

Aircraft orders will definitely be considered at the table, just like retirements will. To say otherwise is ignant. :laugh:

 

[slaquer5]

I wouldn't worry about it....The fact that SWAPA never consulted ALPA to give them the common and professional courtesy of a heads up.



Next time...tell your union to at least give our union the courtesy of call if they intend to send us something prior to our inevitable SLI.

Now that's funny right there. How about AT NC guys not having the courtesy to call our NC when changing there mind on the process agreement.

POT THIS IS KETTLE.

 

[redflyer65]

Ty,

You want to keep pounding the table on how contracts are not guaranteed forever, but in the same breath talk about all the growth possiblities with Airtran's aircraft orders. (which were never guaranteed by the way). I'm not sure those phantom orders will have any bearing on the SLI. It would have thrust AAI into further debt to accept those deliveries, and that part is irrefutable.

You can't argue out of both sides of your mouth at the same time.

 

[Max Powers]

Ty,

You want to keep pounding the table on how contracts are not guaranteed forever, but in the same breath talk about all the growth possiblities with Airtran's aircraft orders. (which were never guaranteed by the way). I'm not sure those phantom orders will have any bearing on the SLI. It would have thrust AAI into further debt to accept those deliveries, and that part is irrefutable.

You can't argue out of both sides of your mouth at the same time.

AAI's debt to equity ratio was well below that of every legacy and further more well within manageable ranges when considering future growth. You are correct that growth is never a guarantee but it will be looked at by any arbiter, to say otherwise is foolish. Just like growth in the future is no guarantee neither is your pay. Like I said I can't wait to WORK TOGETHER. Just don't try to undervalue me or my coworkers or we will all pay for it in the end.

 

[Bill Nelson]

Aircraft orders will definitely be considered at the table, just like retirements will. To say otherwise is ignant.

They will be considered. So will the 241 orders we have on the books. When we take delivery of our planes (the 50 former AirTran planes) it will represent less than 8% fleet growth. On the other hand, if AirTran took our deliveries it would be almost 200% growth to your airline. We already had over 5 times the orders you had before we bought them. You don't bring nearly as much to the table as you think.

Your 717's are not money makers and the reality is your operation is more of an anchor than a sail.

 

[redflyer65]

I'm not trying to diminish what Airtran accomplished with what they had, they really did VERY well in Delta's backyard. Which is not easy.

The fact and reality are that almost every aircraft delivery that Southwest takes is made with cash, not further debt. Airtran was just not in the financial position to be as strong as that. More debt with minimal return on that debt creates a wedge that's hard to overcome. Bob saw that road ahead and then reviewed his golden parachute and pulled the cord when Gary called.

 

[PCL_128]

KP,

When you make statements like this, it really shows that you don't know what you are talking about. Your 'old management stooges' aren't in these meetings, but I wouldn't expect a AAI line guy to know anything about it. And that's not meant as a slam at all, just letting you know what is really going on here.

RF

Wrong, as usual. Our Executive Vice President - Operations & Customer Service (basically the guy just under Bob Jordan on the corporate org chart) was present at meetings when SLI talks began.

Maybe AAI ALPA will send a FEDEX package to my house to explain the losses I can expect as a result of the acquisition.

I don't think any of us want you to lose anything. There are plenty of ways to integrate the lists that won't result in your being harmed. Let the merger committees do their jobs.

Now that's funny right there. How about AT NC guys not having the courtesy to call our NC when changing there mind on the process agreement.

POT THIS IS KETTLE.

Wrong again.

 

[Ty Webb]

They will be considered. So will the 241 orders we have on the books. When we take delivery of our planes (the 50 former AirTran planes) it will represent less than 8% fleet growth. On the other hand, if AirTran took our deliveries it would be almost 200% growth to your airline. We already had over 5 times the orders you had before we bought them. You don't bring nearly as much to the table as you think.

Your 717's are not money makers and the reality is your operation is more of an anchor than a sail.

This conversation would be worth having, if you stuck to facts, instead of rhetoric and insults.

As it is, though, it's just a vehicle for insulting us, and isn't worth a real response.

 

[Max Powers]

They will be considered. So will the 241 orders we have on the books. When we take delivery of our planes (the 50 former AirTran planes) it will represent less than 8% fleet growth. On the other hand, if AirTran took our deliveries it would be almost 200% growth to your airline. We already had over 5 times the orders you had before we bought them. You don't bring nearly as much to the table as you think.

Your 717's are not money makers and the reality is your operation is more of an anchor than a sail.

Billy you never cease to amaze me. Your fairness compass is a bit deviated. What we bring to the table is also compared directly to the numbers (amount of pilots) we bring to the table. Those 50 were all growth aircraft for 1700 pilots. Your 241 aircraft orders were all replacement as per GK - and that was for 5,800 pilots.

Still doesn't change the Fact: Can't wait to begin working with SWA pilots in growing and making our company even better. I just ask for some mutual respect. I know you have earned just like we have.