SWAPA Info packet FEDEXed to all AirTran Pilots

[Cometman]

Wrong, as usual. Our Executive Vice President - Operations & Customer Service (basically the guy just under Bob Jordan on the corporate org chart) was present at meetings when SLI talks began.

Is that good for Airtran? Having your old management there seems that it would help SWAPA more than Airtran. They hated you before why would they help you now? I think they would help SWAPA abd SWA in order to secure a job with their new employee. Just a thought.

 

[redflyer65]

Wrong, as usual. Our Executive Vice President - Operations & Customer Service (basically the guy just under Bob Jordan on the corporate org chart) was present at meetings when SLI talks began.

PCL,

Are you really naive enough to think that you AND your MC have any knowledge of the extensive meetings that have taken place between SWAPA NC and upper level management at SW?

I'm just passing along factual info here, but if you guys want to keep thinking otherwise then so be it.

On this subject, you have no clue about what you are talking about. I'm not talking about meetings prior to SLI, that everyone knew about.

So who's wrong as usual here?

RF

 

[Bill Nelson]

I will try to be more respectful.

Those 50 were all growth aircraft for 1700 pilots.

That isn't a true statement. Your management team made a habit of pushing off deliveries. (presumable because they couldn't afford to take them or had nowhere to put them into service without SWA or Delta competition) The delivery schedule is extremely backloaded into the early 2020's. Your 717's start to retire in 2017 so to say your orders where all for growth is not reality.

Some of our orders are most certainly for replacement but the company has been telling us for over a year they plan to make a large order as soon as Boeing decides what it plans to do with the 737 replacement. SWA has plenty of orders and money to grow the airline and that is exactly what they planned to do, with or without AirTran.

 

[Ty Webb]

PCL is correct. The individual named was present at least at the initial SLI meeting, as was detailed in MC updates to the Pilot Group.

Why do you guys want to argue over stupid minutae like that, anyway? What's the point, unless you're just trying to block any real information or conversation from being expressed.

 

[madjack]

Ty: Your company was BOUGHT to eliminate a competitor...not to grow...we did not need your airplanes we needed to eliminate competition...what is fair and equitable about ur pilot group (the bought, weaker competitor) gaining a huge windfall and the pilot group of the stronger surviving pilot group gaining nothing as a result of this acquisition?

 

[PCL_128]

So who's wrong as usual here?

RF

Still you, red. I'm not talking about meetings prior to SLI talks. I'm talking about the SLI talks themselves. Mr. Klaus Goersch, AirTran Executive Vice President, was present at the beginning of SLI talks.

 

[Sy-bill]

The truth of the matter is when one airline buys another they do so for gates, and equipment. In this case you will see probably about 30 to 40 Air Tran cities go away because they do not reflect the SWA business model. But to have 40 plus 737-700's with 32 gates in Atlanta, SWA has decided it was worth 300 million out of their pocket. Relatively speaking, about the same money they spent for Morris and presence in the northwest and a larger presence out west.

If they could do it without the people, they would. It is a huge expense to transition the people in this type of operational purchase. But they really have no choice.

 

[redflyer65]

Still you, red. I'm not talking about meetings prior to SLI talks. I'm talking about the SLI talks themselves. Mr. Klaus Goersch, AirTran Executive Vice President, was present at the beginning of SLI talks.

Do I have to hit you over the head with a brick before you understand it. I'm not talking about SLI talks (in regard to the Airtran team).

Here's a big hint...the company showing up at the table this week is to brief the Airtran side, NOT our pilot group. SWAPA has been meeting with them regularly already. SW management knows exactly who has proposed what and when, how do you think that is?

 

[Ty Webb]

I will try to be more respectful.

Thanks, same here.

That isn't a true statement. Your management team made a habit of pushing off deliveries. (presumable because they couldn't afford to take them or had nowhere to put them into service without SWA or Delta competition) The delivery schedule is extremely backloaded into the early 2020's.

Interesting viewpoint, but I don't think any AAI pilot would agree. Basically, when oil hit its peak a few years ago, the company realized that they could reap millions of dollars in revenue by trading some of the delivery slots, at the same time saving the cash that would normally be laid out for the initial equity investment in the deliveries. No one knew where oil was headed, and it was a shrewd move for the times.

Your 717's start to retire in 2017 so to say your orders where all for growth is not reality.

Not true, Bill. Actually, the current delivery schedule shows 49 737NG aircraft being delivered prior to 2017. Only the last two aircraft are delivered in 2017.

This is the delivery schedule from the most recent 10Q, filed in April 2011.


TW

 

[e=mc2]

Redflyer you are will just frustrate yourself if you expect a zealot like PCL to listen or understand.

 

[redflyer65]

Redflyer you are will just frustrate yourself if you expect a zealot like PCL to listen or understand.

You're probably right, just like banging my head against the wall.

 

[Lear70]

By now, presumably all of you have received a FedEx package from SWAPA. And SWA mgmt. A letter from VP Flt OPS CM was included in the mailing as well.

Just keep talking...

I will, since we obviously need to clear up the misconception that Southwest management prepared this packet.

The letter from VP Flt Ops is at the front simply introducing the packet and CLEARLY STATES that SWAPA prepared the packet. Let me reiterate that in case you missed it, CM comes right out and says that SWAPA prepared the packet, even saying he "salutes their (SWAPA's) initiative".

Nearly every paragraph starts with or contains the word SWAPA. Even the reply to address and website hosting the pay comparison charts is a swapa.org address. It's a SWAPA booklet, plain and simple.

Again, receiving this didn't make me mad, I just recognized it for what it is, read it, and filed it with everything else I've received (which is what it sounds like most of our pilots did). Incidentally, the financial information in it is completely incorrect for my "personalized" data. I had already computed what my TFP would have been on a trip-by-trip basis for the past few months with the welcome packet I received at the round-up and help from a couple SWA buddies. That packet from the round-up was actually MUCH more in-depth and useful information on the history of SWA and SWAPA as well as the money and benefits side of the coin and I still refer to it from time to time, my thanks to the then-leadership of SWAPA for both the round-ups and for the reading materials.

 

[Ty Webb]

You're probably right, just like banging my head against the wall.

Damn, who knew we were all head bangers?

:laugh:

 

[dicko]

On the other hand, if AirTran took our deliveries it would be almost 200% growth to your airline. .

You know, you just made an excellent case for AirTran pilots career expectations absent the SWA deal ?

 

[redflyer65]

Nothing like Hair Nation on your guys XM!!

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

Yes the xm rocks!! Sucks it's going away.

 

[Bill Nelson]

Not true, Bill. Actually, the current delivery schedule shows 49 737NG aircraft being delivered prior to 2017. Only the last two aircraft are delivered in 2017.

This is the delivery schedule from the most recent 10Q, filed in April 2011.


TW

I'm sure you can read about it in the next earnings report. They hedged their bet at the last minute just in case the SWA "White Knight" fell through is the scuttlebutt on the street.

 

[PCL_128]

SW management knows exactly who has proposed what and when, how do you think that is?

Because they've been at the bargaining table for SLI talks the entire time. Not too hard to figure out.

 

[SWA/FO]

I had already computed what my TFP would have been on a trip-by-trip basis

@ First year Pay? You know, Seniority, ie. years of service at Southwest has yet to be negotiated. This, along with pay rates on the 717. Everything is on the table and has to be negotiated.

Does ALPA want a say in any of this?

A negotiated settlement is the ONLY way ALPA has a say in any of this.

 

[PCL_128]

@ First year Pay? You know, Seniority, ie. years of service at Southwest has yet to be negotiated. This, along with pay rates on the 717. Everything is on the table and has to be negotiated.

Does ALPA want a say in any of this?

A negotiated settlement is the ONLY way ALPA has a say in any of this.

Sounds like a great DFR lawsuit. I'm sure SWAPA is smarter than that.

 

[Lear70]

@ First year Pay? You know, Seniority, ie. years of service at Southwest has yet to be negotiated. This, along with pay rates on the 717. Everything is on the table and has to be negotiated.

I don't know who you've been talking to, but you can't take our longevity. Period. Not unless we VOLUNTARILY give it up. That's a FACT of the RLA. NO airline merger/acquisition/arbitration has EVER given up longevity unless the pilots of one group voluntarily gave it up. The reason for that?

IT'S ILLEGAL TO FORCIBLY REMOVE SOMEONE'S RIGHTS UNDER A CBA. That includes their contractually-guaranteed longevity.

In addition, the MV letter recognizes Southwest as a "successor". Section 1 of our CBA requires any "successor" to honor our CBA in its entirety. That puts Southwest on the hook not to abrogate our longevity as well.

Sorry, Charlie. Don't know where you're getting your information, but it's dead wrong on the longevity issue. That question has been asked and answered by our legal staff, and I trust them over some kind of internal SWAPA rumor mill.

Pay rates on the 717 are a different matter.

Perhaps you should check with your legal staff and Negotiating Committee DIRECTLY before you go off on the longevity tangent again. I have.

 

[redflyer65]

So where would the DFR lawsuit draw the line in the sand?

If Southwest is paying a 737 CA the equivelant of 210/hr and SWAPA negotiates a 717 rate of 170/hr, or 150/hr, or 140/hr. Where is the line on filing a lawsuit? I'd say at best, that's a very grey area that would be hard to defend in a court of law.

 

[Cometman]

I don't know who you've been talking to, but you can't take our longevity. Period. Not unless we VOLUNTARILY give it up. That's a FACT of the RLA. NO airline merger/acquisition/arbitration has EVER given up longevity unless the pilots of one group voluntarily gave it up. The reason for that?

IT'S ILLEGAL TO FORCIBLY REMOVE SOMEONE'S RIGHTS UNDER A CBA. That includes their contractually-guaranteed longevity.

In addition, the MV letter recognizes Southwest as a "successor". Section 1 of our CBA requires any "successor" to honor our CBA in its entirety. That puts Southwest on the hook not to abrogate our longevity as well.

Sorry, Charlie. Don't know where you're getting your information, but it's dead wrong on the longevity issue. That question has been asked and answered by our legal staff, and I trust them over some kind of internal SWAPA rumor mill.

Pay rates on the 717 are a different matter.

Perhaps you should check with your legal staff and Negotiating Committee DIRECTLY before you go off on the longevity tangent again. I have.

After reading what you, PCl and TY has to say I would recommend SWAPA take what you are offering. It seems like you guys do have all the leverage and it would be in SWAPA's best interest not to fight you. You seem to be one intelligent pilot and I think you will do good with SWAPA. Maybe even run for President. Good luck and congratulation on you win. I thought SWAPA was holding all the cards but I was wrong. Your $60,000 year raise will come in handy. The good thing arbitration will not consider that. However, unless there are fences and lower pay rates for the 717 and seat locks for many many years. I assume that is a possibility? Am I correct in that assumption?

 

[dicko]

So where would the DFR lawsuit draw the line in the sand?

If Southwest is paying a 737 CA the equivelant of 210/hr and SWAPA negotiates a 717 rate of 170/hr, or 150/hr, or 140/hr. Where is the line on filing a lawsuit? I'd say at best, that's a very grey area that would be hard to defend in a court of law.

I don't think this will become a reality and I definitely don't want it to.

However, off the top of my head: The 717 will have 122 seats and your 737-300 will be equivilant. You could argue range maybe, but the 717 is a more capable aircraft in most other area (RNP, etc ....)

No I don't want to argue over 737-300 vs 717 all day.

 

[SWA/FO]

Sounds like a great DFR lawsuit. I'm sure SWAPA is smarter than that.

Please explain. You are not SWAPA Pilots there is no duty to your group.

 

[Lear70]

After reading what you, PCl and TY has to say I would recommend SWAPA take what you are offering. It seems like you guys do have all the leverage and it would be in SWAPA's best interest not to fight you. You seem to be one intelligent pilot and I think you will do good with SWAPA. Maybe even run for President. Good luck and congratulation on you win. I thought SWAPA was holding all the cards but I was wrong. Your $60,000 year raise will come in handy. The good thing arbitration will not consider that. However, unless there are fences and lower pay rates for the 717 and seat locks for many many years. I assume that is a possibility? Am I correct in that assumption?

*chuckle* Not interested in union work. Been there. Done that. Have that t-shirt (and a few other things from that fiasco).

However, tongue-in-cheek aside, no, I don't expect SWAPA to roll over, but I have no interest in listening to people who like to make threats, especially ones that have no basis in fact. They do NOTHING towards making this process work smoothly and getting down to the real business of building an even bigger and better SWA. I simply correct their inaccuracies, acknowledge the truths (even the ones that weaken our position), and try to keep things civil.

I'm not sure what you meant by the last part of your post, it's a little choppy. What are you assuming? That seat locks and fences and lower pay rates are a possibility of arbitration? Yes, that's a realistic possibility. I personally don't think SWAPA would chop off its nose to spite its face by negotiating lower 717 rates. Doing that would affect negotiations later down the road should SWA purchase a SNB 737-300 / 717 replacement and ask for the same, lower rates for decades to come. Not a smart tactical move, but I could be wrong.

Seat locks and fences could certainly be put in place by the arbitrator panel, and quite possibly Seat locks could be created after arbitration by SWAPA and Southwest. Nothing preventing that whatsoever. Fences? No, that's the arbitrator's decision. Seat/equipment locks by SWAPA/SWA? Yes, very possible.

 

[PCL_128]

Please explain. You are not SWAPA Pilots there is no duty to your group.

You were talking about longevity. SWAPA can't negotiate longevity for a craft and class of employees that they don't represent. Therefore, if they're reducing our longevity as you have suggested, then it's after they represent us, when they do have a DFR obligation. Like I said, they're smarter than that, even if you aren't.

 

[Lear70]

You were talking about longevity. SWAPA can't negotiate longevity for a craft and class of employees that they don't represent. Therefore, if they're reducing our longevity as you have suggested, then it's after they represent us, when they do have a DFR obligation. Like I said, they're smarter than that, even if you aren't.

Bingo!

 

[luv2fly]

You were talking about longevity. SWAPA can't negotiate longevity for a craft and class of employees that they don't represent. Therefore, if they're reducing our longevity as you have suggested, then it's after they represent us, when they do have a DFR obligation. Like I said, they're smarter than that, even if you aren't.

Just to educate you a little. Generally category and class has to do with type of airplane and seat position. It has nothing to do with longevity. ALPA will have an opportunity to negotiate your longevity with a negotiated deal. Absent a deal SWA and SWAPA will negotiate all items for you. For example; pay rates, fence agreements, longevity, probation and so on!

 

[ivauir]

Sorry to the guys who were offended by the factual information package my dues money paid for and my Company supported. I hope you find the next one more useful.

Is everyone having a great weekend?

Sat on my patio last night eating this amazing Mediterranean salmon recipe my wife whipped up. Watched the storms in the distance ...