SWAPA Info packet FEDEXed to all AirTran Pilots

[ATLplt]

Why would anyone want to negotiate lower payrates on the 717 when you didn't secure higher rates on the 800? Isn't that counter productive for future bargaining, or is it simply spite for the pilots that fly it?

 

[Ty Webb]

Just to educate you a little. Generally category and class has to do with type of airplane and seat position. It has nothing to do with longevity. ALPA will have an opportunity to negotiate your longevity with a negotiated deal. Absent a deal SWA and SWAPA will negotiate all items for you. For example; pay rates, fence agreements, longevity, probation and so on!

In real terms, SWAPA will not have the ability to negotiate lower than what AAI pilots now have, regardless of your masturbatory fantasies. :erm:

 

[GoodTimes]

I say good on SWAPA for sending the info package to the AAI guys. It's proactive and, despite the naysayers on FI, I'm sure very effective. Not every AAI pilot was able to attend the Atlanta group hug, and I'm sure SWAPA has some concerns as to the ability of ALPA to present all the facts. Could any AAI guy actually envision your union sending you a product like the one you just got? Be honest. It seems to me the AAI pilots have a decision in their future and SWA/SWAPA is trying to enlighten them as to which direction would be best......for everyone involved. You've got to give a little in order to get.

 

[ASADFW7]

There are a lot of experts on this forum. Funny our own powers to be in flight ops are not as smart of this forum, I suggest sending in your resume with the history of your posts to show how smart you are, maybe there will be a job waiting for you?

 

[Lear70]

Just to educate you a little. Generally category and class has to do with type of airplane and seat position. It has nothing to do with longevity. ALPA will have an opportunity to negotiate your longevity with a negotiated deal. Absent a deal SWA and SWAPA will negotiate all items for you. For example; pay rates, fence agreements, longevity, probation and so on!

Ummm... "Craft and class" are terms straight out of RLA terminology. PCL's post is 100% spot-on. If you have questions about it (or the correct terminology he used in his post), you might want to contact your NC and your legal team.

(Still chuckling at you trying to "educate" PCL on the RLA.)

 

[dicko]

I say good on SWAPA for sending the info package to the AAI guys. It's proactive and, despite the naysayers on FI, I'm sure very effective. Not every AAI pilot was able to attend the Atlanta group hug, and I'm sure SWAPA has some concerns as to the ability of ALPA to present all the facts. Could any AAI guy actually envision your union sending you a product like the one you just got? Be honest. It seems to me the AAI pilots have a decision in their future and SWA/SWAPA is trying to enlighten them as to which direction would be best......for everyone involved. You've got to give a little in order to get.

As I said I'm not offended. I know why SWAPA sent us this package and it doesn't bother me.

I appreciated the positive welcoming words from the VP Flt Ops.

Using the information SWAPA provided to me it shows that I would lose
15-20 thousand dollars of pay in 2012. If I became a SWA 10 year F.O.

 

[GoodTimes]

Sucks to be you, Dicko

 

[greenpilot]

In real terms, SWAPA will not have the ability to negotiate lower than what AAI pilots now have, regardless of your masturbatory fantasies. :erm:

Ty. I think swapa could agree to what ever pay rates the want. I would imagine that they would want to get the same rates as their 737's. I doesn't make since to agree to a lower pay rate when their pilots will be flying these planes. There is a slim chance that swa could buy more 717's or when people bid out of the 717 their fo's may choose to take the first upgrade which could be the 717.
As far as all the future airplanes we bring to the table. You may want to look at the delta/NWA or the NWA/republic mergers in both cases the future orders were not considered. There were a lot of NWA guys who felt their 787 orders should count as wide body slots. Unfortunately the arbitrator didn't agree.


We will keep our longevity. Bob jordon told us that in one of the luv lines and just look at history nobody loses longevity. Even if you could take it away it would be a pretty D1ck move to take away a groups years of service just because you didn't get everything you wanted.

 

[SWA/FO]

Just to educate you a little. Generally category and class has to do with type of airplane and seat position. It has nothing to do with longevity. ALPA will have an opportunity to negotiate your longevity with a negotiated deal. Absent a deal SWA and SWAPA will negotiate all items for you. For example; pay rates, fence agreements, longevity, probation and so on!

Bingo! :bawling:

We will keep our longevity. Bob jordon told us that in one of the luv lines and just look at history nobody loses longevity. Even if you could take it away it would be a pretty D1ck move to take away a groups years of service just because you didn't get everything you wanted.

Acting like you're entilted to all of our stuff without giving anything is a pretty richard move too.

:cartman:

 

[Beechdriver32]

Dicko- And then make another 75 to 100K when you upgraded to Capt again, for the rest of you your career!!

yup, really sucks to be you..

BD32

 

[dicko]

Sucks to be you, Dicko

No more "good times" huh ...... :erm:

Weren't you trying to show me how much more money I'd make ? That's your reasoning for the "But what do I get out of this" argument isn't it.

Cheer up Bud. I've still got something to look forward to. Your real personal culture. The one outlined in red.

Thanks again for the packet.

 

[dicko]

Dicko- And then make another 75 to 100K when you upgraded to Capt again, for the rest of you your career!!

yup, really sucks to be you..

BD32

I see your point. Really I do. Unfortunately nobody can set that in stone. The loss will be.

I'm willing to keep an open mind though.

 

[Beechdriver32]

Dicko-

So it's fair that a 7 year AI Capt keeps his seat who gets to fly with an 11 WN FO who also keeps his seat.

Makes perfect sense, after all, the SWA FO isn't harmed at all, right?

Got it.

Thanks, and again very sorry for your 'loss' and misfortune.

BD32

 

[The Prussian]

I read it, puked all over it, then set it on fire and urinated on it.

...talk about misfortunes...were you able to put the fire out???

 

[Just thinking]

Pay protect the swa fo until his number comes up for upgrade. Saves traing costs.

 

[GoodTimes]

I wasn't trying to "show" you anything, Dicko. And I certainly wasn't trying to make an "argument". Just giving my take on the info package. I'm afraid you've misconstrued the whole idea of "culture" at SWA. Family comes first, and you're not family.....yet.

 

[PCL_128]

Just to educate you a little.

Yeah, thanks for the "education." :laugh:

Generally category and class has to do with type of airplane and seat position. It has nothing to do with longevity. ALPA will have an opportunity to negotiate your longevity with a negotiated deal. Absent a deal SWA and SWAPA will negotiate all items for you. For example; pay rates, fence agreements, longevity, probation and so on!

Now, here's some real education:

"Craft and class" is a term in labor law that deals with bargaining units for labor groups. For example, an NMB certification of a union at a particular airline might say something to the effect of "the craft and class of cockpit crew members of XYZ airline," meaning that the union has been certified by the NMB to represent anyone who is a cockpit crew member at that airline (captains, FOs, flight engineers, checkairmen). But, the RLA does not allow two unions to represent the same craft and class, which is different than the law under the NLRA.

So, taking it to the next step. When the NMB certifies a union to represent a craft and class, it is a legal certification that gives that one union the sole rights to negotiate anything at all for that craft and class. You can't go in and negotiate your own separate contract, and likewise, another union can't negotiate something for you. Only the union that is certified by the NMB may negotiate anything for that craft and class.

Therefore, in order for SWAPA to negotiate anything for the AirTran pilots, including longevity, SWAPA has to be certified as our bargaining representative first. And after SWAPA is certified as our bargaining representative, SWAPA has a duty of fair representation (DFR) under the law to us. That DFR obligation prohibits SWAPA from taking any action that would be considered "arbitrary, discriminatory, or in bad faith." So, anything that would serve to single out the AirTran portion of the pilot group for disparate treatment from the rest of the SWAPA membership would be a violation of SWAPA's DFR obligation.

SWAPA has good legal representation, so I'm sure they know better.

 

[greenpilot]

Bingo! :bawling:



Acting like you're entilted to all of our stuff without giving anything is a pretty richard move too.

:cartman:

The wings of welcome packet SWAPA just fedex me showed me everything I will be entitled to "IF" we merge. Our two merger groups are discussing what it is we will be giving up. Let's just hope things happen sooner rather then latter.

 

[dicko]

Dicko-

So it's fair that a 7 year AI Capt keeps his seat who gets to fly with an 11 WN FO who also keeps his seat.

Makes perfect sense, after all, the SWA FO isn't harmed at all, right?

Got it.

Thanks, and again very sorry for your 'loss' and misfortune.

BD32

How did you get that out of what I said ? You're making some huge assumptions about what I think.

I do not feel unfortunate. In fact I feel very fortunate. That includes SWA. You and I made different choices years ago. Both of them were good. Just don't expect me to make the same choice as you would now.

I made one point, and it was about my pay. As the situation stands today.

Cheers,

 

[fr8doggie]

Pure Genius!

Maybe AAI ALPA will send a FEDEX package to my house to explain the losses I can expect as a result of the acquisition.

I think that's a great idea! In fact, you guys should retire to your neutral corners and conduct all future negotiations via FedEx.

We appreciate the business.

 

[luv2fly]

Yeah, thanks for the "education." :laugh:



Now, here's some real education:

"Craft and class" is a term in labor law that deals with bargaining units for labor groups. For example, an NMB certification of a union at a particular airline might say something to the effect of "the craft and class of cockpit crew members of XYZ airline," meaning that the union has been certified by the NMB to represent anyone who is a cockpit crew member at that airline (captains, FOs, flight engineers, checkairmen). But, the RLA does not allow two unions to represent the same craft and class, which is different than the law under the NLRA.

So, taking it to the next step. When the NMB certifies a union to represent a craft and class, it is a legal certification that gives that one union the sole rights to negotiate anything at all for that craft and class. You can't go in and negotiate your own separate contract, and likewise, another union can't negotiate something for you. Only the union that is certified by the NMB may negotiate anything for that craft and class.

Therefore, in order for SWAPA to negotiate anything for the AirTran pilots, including longevity, SWAPA has to be certified as our bargaining representative first. And after SWAPA is certified as our bargaining representative, SWAPA has a duty of fair representation (DFR) under the law to us. That DFR obligation prohibits SWAPA from taking any action that would be considered "arbitrary, discriminatory, or in bad faith." So, anything that would serve to single out the AirTran portion of the pilot group for disparate treatment from the rest of the SWAPA membership would be a violation of SWAPA's DFR obligation.

SWAPA has good legal representation, so I'm sure they know better.

You are almost funny! Your lack of imagination in regards to what can happen to you via the latitude afforded SWAPA in the PA is sad. I hope your replacement is better informed!

 

[SWA/FO]

PLC don't know jack! Better learn how to fly, and quick. You are NO GOOD for us.

 

[Ty Webb]

The thought of SWA/FO operating anything more powerful than a weedwhacker is pretty scary.

 

[Kharma Police]

PLC don't know jack! Better learn how to fly, and quick. You are NO GOOD for us.

The irony will be when you get your wet dream to upgrade and the only vacancy is on the 717. Since you won't have your hand held buying your type rating this time you will need PCL's help just to start the APU. Good luck, homey, I'm sure the "Undertaker" will be impressed.

 

[Bob Dylan]

PLC don't know jack! Better learn how to fly, and quick. You are NO GOOD for us.

I'm not a SWA pilot, but his avatar seems incredibly insulting regarding the current situation.

I still believe that ALPA feels their best interest is for this whole integration to poison Southwest Airlines, whereby harming a non-ALPA carrier. Why would ALPA want this to go smoothly. They do not benefit from it at all. The best thing for them is to drag this out for years (collecting trannie dues) and finally poisoning SWA culture by an unfair integration.

Just my two cents.

 

[PCL_128]

You are almost funny! Your lack of imagination in regards to what can happen to you via the latitude afforded SWAPA in the PA is sad.

What is truly sad is that so many airline pilots have virtually no understanding whatsoever of what the key piece of legislation that governs their entire career says. And, even worse, you don't take the time to understand a document that was just negotiated a few months ago by your own union. Not understanding a piece of legislation that is three quarters of a century old is forgivable. Not taking the time to gain an understanding of the very documents to which your own union is a signatory? That's a different story.

 

[roughneck]

PCL

"craft and class" and "category and class" are two very different things. See seem to confuse the two.

I've quit responding to idiotic posts but you have driven me off the couch. Your unbelievable lack of knowledge and insistence that you are right is embarrassing. I can only venture to guess that is why you no longer represent AirTran pilots.

The Process Agreement is a guideline for how the airlines will be integrated, if they are. If you truly believe It forces an integration I'd say you need another bag of whataburgers because your head is full of something other than "smarts."

 

[PCL_128]

PCL

"craft and class" and "category and class" are two very different things. See seem to confuse the two.

"Category and class" isn't a term that even exists in labor relations. I think you're thinking of "category and status," which is a term that deals with seniority integration and has been used in virtually every recent arbitration award. It has nothing to do with "craft and class," which is a term used in labor law that you apparently need to brush up on.

 

[SWA/FO]

I don't need Tranny to Upgrade. I am there, already. :cartman: I'm not bidding the 717, don't need to.

The thought of SWA/FO operating anything more powerful than a weedwhacker is pretty scary.

I hire that $hit out.

 

[roughneck]

"Category and class" isn't a term that even exists in labor relations. I think you're thinking of "category and status," which is a term that deals with seniority integration and has been used in virtually every recent arbitration award. It has nothing to do with "craft and class," which is a term used in labor law that you apparently need to brush up on.

It depends. It may not have existed before but never before has there been such a difference in career expectations either.

SWA has broken ground on many fronts, this SLI will be another. I hope you can be a part of it when it is all over.