SWAPA Comments about 717

[-9Capt]

Stall,

SWAPA/ALPA were never going to agree on a fair and equitable list. That's why we had a process agreement.

I expected SW to follow the process agreement, act honorably and see this to a logical conclusion. I guess that was expecting too much from a company that likes to talk about its culture and quote the golden rule.

 

[PCL_128]

Stall,

Seriously, what did you expect? Pure realitive with immediate SW pay? Was that realistic?

Again, pay parity should have been a given. As far as seniority, I think everyone here could have lived with DOH, even though it would have been a significant hit to relative seniority. I do agree that a straight relative seniority list would not have been equitable.

 

[Crash Pad]

35 pages of rinse and repeat. You guys must be a hoot to drink with.

 

[redflyer65]

Again, pay parity should have been a given. As far as seniority, I think everyone here could have lived with DOH, even though it would have been a significant hit to relative seniority. I do agree that a straight relative seniority list would not have been equitable.

Of course everyone over there could have lived with DOH. So in that scenerio, your saying that getting hired at Airtran was exactly equal to getting hired at SW. That's not meant as a slam on AAI, just framing your point of view.

Neither SWAPA or ALPA could have mandated pay parity. Only Gary could agree to that. He did the first time, then pulled his money off the table the second go around. That was his decision alone. He didn't come to SWAPA and ask us what we thought he should do, he decided himself.

 

[vixin]

-9 big boy Capt.,

Nice tag line. You may want to do a little research about what your ex CEO was saying about AAI. I am not going to re post all that yet again, but its obvious you are a 5% er at AAI.

You guys should have voted no and take your chances then. I like how its only OK for an AAI guy to be pissed about the deal but all SWA guys should be tickled pink about it. Grow up! Its done, move on. If you cant get the hell out and make your life better. Look at all you did get. Make the best of it. Bitching here isnt going to anything but send you to the grave sooner.

 

[Citrusflyer]

Wow, 18 pages of ... what exactly? This thread has been beaten into glue.

Three things are pretty clear. (1) SWA guys don't see the AT side. (2) AT guys don't see the SWA side. (3) It's fairly easy to be a hater from afar ... not so much up close, or in the same cockpit (unless you’re a member of the 10% club - or a troll).

The SLI sucks, but it’s done. Neither side has any ability to change that. Neither side had much ability to influence it from the get-go. If we did, the Mech’s, FA’s, etc. would want a bite of the apple as well. So we all know Gary will NEVER let that happen. Nothing will change, including pay-parity, until either 2015 or until one crosses the partition.

This massive ‘seat-grab’ is also an albatross. SC’s victory lap will come back to bite him - and soon. By SWA’s own e-mails there is a great possibility that about a third of the 717 fleet will be on the AT side after the 2015 date. Additionally, there’s a good chance a sizable number of 737’s will be on the AT side as well. There’s only 3 more transition classes left for the year (24 each class). Movement over to SWA is slowing to a glacial pace. You want to be a Cap’t at SWA after the fence drops - stay on the AT side. The ‘senior’ guys will be able to bid right over to a left seat after that. Plus, SC's caustic, childish, and poorly worded (or not) e-mail have earned him over 1,500 non-supporters at some critical time down the road.

As for flying the right seat, after being in the left so long. I’ve had the opportunity to fly with several ex-Delta guys. Guys who were check-airmen and captains on the Int’l fleet. Without a doubt among the best, most professional pilots I’ve ever flown with. Never a gripe, whine, or a woe-is-me moment for their position in life. I’m not thrilled over the prospect of moving over, but I plan on making those guys proud by doing my job the way they would. In short, being professional, and enjoying my time and new relative seniority. Seriously, we have to make the best of it - as there is no other choice.

Don’t y’all think it’s time to stop the cliquish-high-school-nods in the concourses and realize none of us have any more choice, nor influence, on this than the other guy?

 

[ASADFW7]

So you sum up 18 pages, and shove that post in everyone's face to what make you feel better?

 

[-9Capt]

Vixin,

Our management has been telling us we're going out of business since I was hired in '97. It's called managing employee expectations. They lie to employees because they can. If they told the same lies in public the BOD would have them removed.

Also, DOH would have resulted in a gain in relitive for SW and a loss for AT. That was not good enough for SWAPA, they needed more. Maybe myself and many others would have applied at SW back when i was hired here if they werent a PFT outfit. I don't do that.

-9 "big boy" Capt, I like that. You can just call me "big boy", a lot of your flight attendants already do.

 

[scoreboardII]

You really don't think Steve "I've got a secret" Chase will be re-elected do you?

 

[Cometman]

Vixin,

Our management has been telling us we're going out of business since I was hired in '97. It's called managing employee expectations. They lie to employees because they can. If they told the same lies in public the BOD would have them removed.

Also, DOH would have resulted in a gain in relitive for SW and a loss for AT. That was not good enough for SWAPA, they needed more. Maybe myself and many others would have applied at SW back when i was hired here if they werent a PFT outfit. I don't do that.

Why would you not expect SWAPA to try and get the best deal for their pilots. Why didn't ALPA try and get you the best deal? Both unions went into this to try and get the best deal. Apparently ALPA gave up and sold you out. Now move on with your life.

 

[-9Capt]

Both unions went into this to try and get the best deal. Apparently ALPA gave up and sold you out. Now move on with your life.

alpa went in trying to get a "fair" deal that everyone could live with. nothing more or less. swapa went in as if to take advantage of the situation, gain as much as possible and put every hardship on the AT pilots. once gk got involved it was like trying to fight city hall.

It's easy for you to "move on" when you're the one who gained as a result of our loss. but I guess you'll never see that. it's been said many times before, we all take great pleasure in knowing that "no SW pilot was harmed". If you don't like what i have to say, block me.

 

[Cometman]

alpa went in trying to get a "fair" deal that everyone could live with. nothing more or less. swapa went in as if to take advantage of the situation, gain as much as possible and put every hardship on the AT pilots. once gk got involved it was like trying to fight city hall.

It's easy for you to "move on" when you're the one who gained as a result of our loss. but I guess you'll never see that. it's been said many times before, we all take great pleasure in knowing that "no SW pilot was harmed". If you don't like what i have to say, block me.

I have no problem with what you are saying. The facts are that your union accepted the deal. You cannot blame SWAPA for wanting the best deal. Everybody wants the best deal. If this went to arbitration and they awarded relative seniority would you accept that, even though it would not have been a fair deal for SWAPA? Of course you would. You would justify it by saying it was a third party that did it. Well guess what? Kelly was the third party and you accepted it.

 

[GoodTimes]

-9Capt,

It's OVER.

What are you going to do?

 

[Kermit_D_Frog]

-9Capt,
For your information, I paid for the type rating after I was hired. And subsequently made more my first year than any other US new hire airline pilot. A lot more in most cases. That's why I came to SWA. And DOH would have screwed me. It would NOT have raised my relative seniority. It would have made it far worse in shear numbers of pilots.

As has been said before, we're not going to see eye to eye. Let it go and make the best of it. That is a far better option than to help pull the wheels off this bus. And that is exactly what is going on right now here. I'm mad about it too, but we need to row in the same direction. If you don't want to do that, please quit. Or act like a jacka$$ in training and the decision will be made for you.

 

[Uppercrust]

Being an Airtran pilot owned by Southwest is like being a spectator at your own lynching.

 

[Lear70]

So we've continued to gripe at each other another week...

Have we accomplished anything?

Nope.

Both sides need to lay off each other. Eventually we ARE going to have to row in the same boat, and building animosity like this isn't going to make that any easier.

Like a previous poster said (and one of my favorite sayings from Kalitta)...

Embrace the suck.

Now go have a beer or something and pet the dog... he's tired of you kicking him every time you walk by. lol (kidding).

 

[bravodude]

Wow, 18 pages of ... what exactly? This thread has been beaten into glue.

Three things are pretty clear. (1) SWA guys don't see the AT side. (2) AT guys don't see the SWA side. (3) It's fairly easy to be a hater from afar ... not so much up close, or in the same cockpit (unless you’re a member of the 10% club - or a troll).

The SLI sucks, but it’s done. Neither side has any ability to change that. Neither side had much ability to influence it from the get-go. If we did, the Mech’s, FA’s, etc. would want a bite of the apple as well. So we all know Gary will NEVER let that happen. Nothing will change, including pay-parity, until either 2015 or until one crosses the partition.

This massive ‘seat-grab’ is also an albatross. SC’s victory lap will come back to bite him - and soon. By SWA’s own e-mails there is a great possibility that about a third of the 717 fleet will be on the AT side after the 2015 date. Additionally, there’s a good chance a sizable number of 737’s will be on the AT side as well. There’s only 3 more transition classes left for the year (24 each class). Movement over to SWA is slowing to a glacial pace. You want to be a Cap’t at SWA after the fence drops - stay on the AT side. The ‘senior’ guys will be able to bid right over to a left seat after that. Plus, SC's caustic, childish, and poorly worded (or not) e-mail have earned him over 1,500 non-supporters at some critical time down the road.

As for flying the right seat, after being in the left so long. I’ve had the opportunity to fly with several ex-Delta guys. Guys who were check-airmen and captains on the Int’l fleet. Without a doubt among the best, most professional pilots I’ve ever flown with. Never a gripe, whine, or a woe-is-me moment for their position in life. I’m not thrilled over the prospect of moving over, but I plan on making those guys proud by doing my job the way they would. In short, being professional, and enjoying my time and new relative seniority. Seriously, we have to make the best of it - as there is no other choice.

Don’t y’all think it’s time to stop the cliquish-high-school-nods in the concourses and realize none of us have any more choice, nor influence, on this than the other guy?

I agree with alot of the things you said, HOWEVER: 1.You don't know for sure if all classes will stop, after the summer season they can kick back up ,2. AT has to be on this side by 2015 if not it then becomes a grievence, what we can win I have no clue. As far as SC victory lap bitting him in the arse, the only one it will bite will be all of us, you me and the rest of the pilots at the combined company.

 

[Tripower455]

Maybe myself and many others would have applied at SW back when i was hired here if they werent a PFT outfit. I don't do that.

Ahh, the old PFT card! Too bad it is complete BS.....

The irony here is that VJ was an actual PFT outfit (ie: you paid for your training to get the job) from the get go.

Yet.....

Not one SW pilot ever paid a cent for their SW training.

 

[madjack]

You act like a second class citizen, you will be treated like one...

 

[-9Capt]

Ahh, the old PFT card! Too bad it is complete BS.....

The irony here is that VJ was an actual PFT outfit (ie: you paid for your training to get the job) from the get go.

Yet.....

Not one SW pilot ever paid a cent for their SW training.

I wasn't hired by VJ, I was hired by AT and spent zero dollars out of pocket for any airline required training, ever. So far the ride has been pretty good, thanks to a fast upgrade, financial discipline and good investments I had well over $1M in net worth before I turned 40. I'm glad paying for a type rating worked out well for you but it's not something I ever considered doing.

Hearing your defense of PFT reminds me of when AT was charging $25 after the first jumpseat was taken. Management , and some pilots, would have you believe they were selling you a non-rev ticket. BS it was a fee to jumpseat, plain and simple. Buying a required type rating as a condition of employment is the same as PFT, plain and simple. Justify it as you must.