SWAPA Comments about 717

[redflyer65]

You wanna keep talking about dicko?

Cool. Your 6year FO payrate went from 74/hr to 95/hr as soon as Southwest stepped in. That's a 28% immediate impact on your hourly rates. I agree you guys should be working hard this summer and making more than min, I'm not sure what Dallas is thinking. That part is crazy.

 

[dicko]

LOL - I was thinking more along the lines that it's a lot more than just 10% of us that are torqued at the moment, which is probably what he's seeing out there on the line.

Eventually it'll just be the 10%'ers, but for right now it's more like the 50%'ers.

Agree. The 10% are the ones not pissed off. I've been a little surprised by the anger from FO's.

 

[StopNTSing]

How can you be overmanned with only 8% reserve coverage?

Because Southwest doesn't want to pay pilots to stay home....even pilots on reserve.

Honestly PCL, I can't wait for you to come across the partition so you will finally know from where you speak about SWA.

 

[redflyer65]

Oh I know, wasn't trying to start an argument, the whole "double your money" thing we hear from time to time just grates on our nerves, similar to us saying you guys don't share any of the pain in this deal. Just trying to interject some real-world numbers in there, should have just shut my yapper.

And yes, I agree 100% that the quick resolution to our contract fight was driven largely by Southwest management, but I do know we would have gotten to those rates, it just likely would have taken another 6 months to a year.

I'm not hugely concerned about furloughs, either (never rule them out but it seems as though the plan we know at the moment with the delay of the Classic retirements will solve that problem). It's just going to be a long process. Hard to "move on" when every few months there's "something else" that pretty much resets the clock. It'll be fine eventually, just gotta keep on keeping on. :beer:

Good level headed post Lear. I agree. We both have our 10%ers and those with hurt feelings. I prefer to be part of the 90% and welcome you guys over. Yapper closed!

 

[dicko]

You wanna keep talking about dicko?

Cool. Your 6year FO payrate went from 74/hr to 95/hr as soon as Southwest stepped in. That's a 28% immediate impact on your hourly rates. I agree you guys should be working hard this summer and making more than min, I'm not sure what Dallas is thinking. That part is crazy.

Our contract was signed under time pressure from SWA. That put downward pressure on it for us. It would have been a better contract without the SWA effect.

You'd think I was a fool if I suddenly became an expert on SWAPA Section 6 negotiations wouldn't you Red ? You're making the same mistake, making assumptions based on a lack of knowledge. There are people here whose names are signed on the CBA that you are suddenly an expert on.

 

[Uppercrust]

Agree. The 10% are the ones not pissed off. I've been a little surprised by the anger from FO's.

Its gonna get a lot worse before the summer is out. We're a proud close group here.

 

[Flyer1015]

Has the ATL base been announced? When will that happen?

 

[jball2]

Being pissed off is one thing. Taking it out on each other is another. I understand why the AT guys are pissed. I would be too. But, when I get lectured about what "I" supposedly did to the AT pilots I wonder about that persons abilty make sound decisions based on this thought process. I am just along for the ride too. Note, this has only happened twice, my only reply to both was " none of this was my idea." Most of the AT folks have still been very accommodating and professional.

 

[humveedriver]

Has the ATL base been announced? When will that happen?

No official word yet on the pilot side. FA's will see a base no later than 2015 according to their agreement (as it was explained to me). ATL will be a base when it makes sense for SWA to make it a base. How and when they decide to do that is going to depend on the transition of aircraft and crews from AT to SWA. So right now there are a bunch of AT 717/737 aircraft base in ATL doing AirTran flying. SWA will have to decrease that flying considerably before opening a SWA domicile. We do alot of connections through ATL and Int'l flying. Since at the present time none of that flying can connect through SWA reservations, you have two distinct pots you are tryin to fill at one time. This is why the transition is going so slow. At some point (2014) SWA will have to make some bold moves and accept more risk with the transition, but for now, they are taking it slow, getting as much done as possible, before pulling the trigger on the main effort. The trigger in all of this, is getting the new res system (Amadeus) operational on the SWA side.

 

[redflyer65]

Our contract was signed under time pressure from SWA. That put downward pressure on it for us. It would have been a better contract without the SWA effect.

You'd think I was a fool if I suddenly became an expert on SWAPA Section 6 negotiations wouldn't you Red ? You're making the same mistake, making assumptions based on a lack of knowledge. There are people here whose names are signed on the CBA that you are suddenly an expert on.

Two things dicko,

1- So you thought you could do better than a 28% pay increase without SW? Seriously?

2- I know more about your negotiations than you may think. How many sections were open? Which ones were they?

That completely disappeared when SW made the announcement.

 

[Citrusflyer]

Has the ATL base been announced? When will that happen?

IMHO, Delta wouldn't agree to take 88 airplanes from their (now) largest competitor; while all the while Airbus keeps knocking on the door with a better deal. UNLESS, part of the agreement (the 'handshake' part) involves SWA agreeing to 'downsize' the ATL. Oh, keep some movement through the city (less than 15 RON), keep some close-in international, but no real presence to hamper the Widget. Now the 717's look like a better deal. Politics and business rule the day. The non-base announcement will come next year, after tempers cool.

Atlanta will not be a base, not for a very long time.

 

[humveedriver]

IMHO, Delta wouldn't agree to take 88 airplanes from their (now) largest competitor; while all the while Airbus keeps knocking on the door with a better deal. UNLESS, part of the agreement (the 'handshake' part) involves SWA agreeing to 'downsize' the ATL. Oh, keep some movement through the city (less than 15 RON), keep some close-in international, but no real presence to hamper the Widget. Now the 717's look like a better deal. Politics and business rule the day. The non-base announcement will come next year, after tempers cool.

Atlanta will not be a base, not for a very long time.

I also agree with that possibility as well. But I think there is too much going on and alot that could change. We will just have to see. SWA has to convert all the 717 gates to 737 gates. I dont know what that footprint looks like or how many daily flights it translates into. Since it is obviously less gate space based on wing span, I draw the conclusion that the future of ATL for SWA is a smaller domicile than what we have now. Could it mean no Domicile, maybe.

 

[redflyer65]

I still think ATL will be a domicle. Reading CM's new message today, he seems to telegraph that move. Maybe too much reading between the lines? Possibly.

 

[scoreboardII]

I just read Chucks letter as well, it comes of just like every other letter he has published which essentially said "we are concerned that you are concerned, but you signed a contract so suck it up fatty".

 

[Lear70]

i just read chucks letter as well, it comes of just like every other letter he has published which essentially said "we are concerned that you are concerned, but you signed a contract so suck it up fatty".

^^^ we have a winner ^^^

 

[madjack]

I read the letter and it sounded like the company knows the AAI guys are getting their cheese moved and knows the ATL domicile is important to the folks at AAI...

 

[PCL_128]

1- So you thought you could do better than a 28% pay increase without SW? Seriously?

You're looking at a single longevity step in a single seat when you come up with that number. The actual increase to pilot payroll was not 28%. It was about 20%. Prior to the merger announcement, we were expecting something in the range of 25-30%, which was still less than what many pilots were demanding. Accepting a mere 20% increase to pilot payroll was a concession on the part of this pilot group because our leverage was pulled out from under us when that announcement was made. The NMB had been putting pressure on management, but they immediately pulled back when the merger was announced. They didn't want to get in the middle of a billion dollar transaction.

2- I know more about your negotiations than you may think.

You really don't.

 

[Lear70]

I read the letter and it sounded like the company knows the AAI guys are getting their cheese moved and knows the ATL domicile is important to the folks at AAI...

Reading between the lines, the letter is managing expectations, both for WHAT they plan to do to ease the damage done by the early departure of the 717 (ATL base) and WHEN we can expect to hear more about it.

It also is saying that they still are waiting on the Delta T.A. vote to determine how they will do the training flow. Again, it's pretty clear they want to close MKE first and MCO shortly thereafter, having SWA doing the vast majority of that flying. Chuckles sent a blast email from the last MCO meeting last week saying that our manager of scheduling said we will be down to 5 Originating flights per day out of MCO by the Fall. You can't support a base with that.

Basically it was a letter that said, "Standby, we won't be able to figure out the whole puzzle and get the new plan to you until after the Delta T.A. vote, and after we work with ALPA to find a new way to implement the transition, since there is no way to bring people over except by the flush bid which requires them to go to SWA 717 which won't exist, and the only bone we are considering throwing you in all this is the ATL domicile which we won't do until fleet planning says it needs to happen".

A system re-bid may be required and, if it is, the inviolability clause for the rest of the agreement allows them to change that without changing the rest of the SIA. The question is, what will AAI ALPA convince SWA to give up in exchange for changing that provision of the SIA? That's the only leverage we have, unless we want to push harder, which might make them re-think the furlough lever they can pull.

Tricky stuff.

 

[dicko]

Two things dicko,

1- So you thought you could do better than a 28% pay increase without SW? Seriously?

2- I know more about your negotiations than you may think. How many sections were open? Which ones were they?

That completely disappeared when SW made the announcement.

Red,

As I said before; if you believe that you have nothing to learn about something that you weren't anywhere near, there is no point in discussing it.

Now, pop next door and tell your neighbor where he went wrong when he was courting his second girlfriend in 1992. He'll appreciate your insights.

 

[redflyer65]

Hey, you stay classy Dicko!