SWAPA Comments about 717

[texman]

Rimshot!lol!

 

[Tripower455]

Rimshot!lol!

LOL... leave it to SWApA to "gain" what we already had.....

 

[humveedriver]

Does SL12 increase guarantee 6.5 trips for each day no matter if it has a red eye or not? Said another way; Does the 6.5 ADG only apply to a redeye "day" or is it included in all days for the pairing? I don't know how meaningful the extra 15% really is, next to 6.5 ADG. I wonder how it looks comparing say LAS-BWI to SEA-BWI? I bet it would be lucrative on LAS-MDW. I'm currently flying redeyes without override, do you guys think SL12 meets the bar?

 

[TahoeBoarder]

Technically, 6.5 as an ADG, regardless of red eye or not, is in our current contract and is further defined in SL14 (yet to be voted on). We didn't gain anything here, just clarified what a "day" is with the intro of red eyes.

 

[Lear70]

Red-eyes as part of a day-scheduled trip are unsafe. Period.

The human body wasn't designed to flip-flop its circadian rhythm like that. That's why our company mainly makes red-eye only lines or at least puts 3 red eyes back-to-back rather than scheduling a day trip then a red-eye.

The worst pairings we have are those that fly a 3 day trip and the last day is a West Coast overnight followed by a red-eye return into domicile. People don't want to call fatigue out there because it's their last day and they're going home, so they suck it up and fly fatigued anyway, just to go home without a delay.

My body can't handle them, hasn't for a long time now, can't go to sleep in the middle of the day to be rested for the evening after being on a day routine all week. They really should only be flown by people who stay on a night rhythm for their entire pairing. Anything else is jeopardizing safety.

/soapbox

 

[PCL_128]

Of course everyone over there could have lived with DOH. So in that scenerio, your saying that getting hired at Airtran was exactly equal to getting hired at SW. That's not meant as a slam on AAI, just framing your point of view.

Yes, that's my point of view. I understand that you feel differently, and that's fine. But you should understand that many AirTran pilots never applied to SWA, and never had any intention of doing so. We didn't ask for this anymore than you did. Just something to keep in mind.

He didn't come to SWAPA and ask us what we thought he should do, he decided himself.

Yes, I agree with you there. I don't blame SWAPA for the pay, or for much of anything, really.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Yes, that's my point of view. I understand that you feel differently, and that's fine. But you should understand that many AirTran pilots never applied to SWA, and never had any intention of doing so. We didn't ask for this anymore than you did. Just something to keep in mind.



Yes, I agree with you there. I don't blame SWAPA for the pay, or for much of anything, really.

Well that's a refreshing change! Everyone else (especially those at other airlines not SWA or Airtran), seem to think that SWAPA set this all up just to mess with you.

Hopefully this will all get explained and straightened out soon, and the holes in the NEW plan and timeline can be reconciled with the OLD plan and timeline in a positive manner.

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

Does SL12 increase guarantee 6.5 trips for each day no matter if it has a red eye or not? Said another way; Does the 6.5 ADG only apply to a redeye "day" or is it included in all days for the pairing? I don't know how meaningful the extra 15% really is, next to 6.5 ADG. I wonder how it looks comparing say LAS-BWI to SEA-BWI? I bet it would be lucrative on LAS-MDW. I'm currently flying redeyes without override, do you guys think SL12 meets the bar?

To answer your initial question, yes, paired with SL14. The company wanted ADG to mean "Average Duty Period Guarantee" instead of "Average Daily Guarantee," which SWAPA wouldn't buy off on. SL 14 codifies the definition as "Average Daily Guarantee," with the Southwest day running from 0300 to 0259. The only exception is a single duty period, say running from midnight to 5am, would be one ADG (6.5) instead of two ADG (13.0). That's pretty much the way it is now for single duty period overnight charters. The ADG doesn't apply; they have their own rigs. So with the new agreement, if you flew two nights of back-to-back redeyes, it would pay a minimum of 19.5 (3 days' worth of ADG), since you're flying on three "Southwest" days. The company's original proposal would only pay a rigged minimum of 13.0 instead of 19.5, since it was only two duty periods.

The 15% override is only for flying out of the 48 contiguous states, unrelated to redeye issues, other than that's probably where you're going to see them, at least initially.

Clear as mud?

Bubba

 

[redflyer65]

Yes, that's my point of view. I understand that you feel differently, and that's fine. But you should understand that many AirTran pilots never applied to SWA, and never had any intention of doing so. We didn't ask for this anymore than you did. Just something to keep in mind.



Yes, I agree with you there. I don't blame SWAPA for the pay, or for much of anything, really.

Agree to disagree on the DOH thing PCL. It was definitly thrust upon all of us without our asking.

Lear,

The way the language is in SL14, you could be assigned a string of Redeye only flights. The carve-out on the Redeye turn is they don't pay ADG of 6.5 for 2 days. But they do pay a 15% overide if it equals more than 6.5. Clear as mud?

SL12 also gave us embedded reserve for Hawaii only. So a three day trip could be something like... 1st day (LAS-OAK-OGG), 2nd day embedded reserve that pays 6.0, 3rd day back to the CONUS. Could end with a redeye, but it would pay 6.5 because it's not a redeye turn.

Once you have completed a redeye leg, you can't fly anymore. You could be deadheaded though.

I think SL14 also states you won't have more than one redeye in a weekly pairing or something to that affect. So you could do a string of redeye turns for the week, or have one most likely as your last leg home, but that redeye would pay 6.5. I don't think anyone else gets paid better for that one leg.

 

[PCL_128]

Are you guys hearing that lines with strings of redeye turns may be coming in the future? That might be something I would be interested in bidding. Looking for any way possible to avoid 3 and 4 day trips.

 

[redflyer65]

The weak thing is, we haven't seen any good examples of how any of this flying will look. Other than a few examples of the Hawaii flying. They are saying in the US they are looking at around 40 redeyes a day. But it's anyones guess at how the company could turn on a dime and add lots more if they like them.

I'm not sure where the string of redeyes came from. It was either pilots worried of doing them (because of the CBA language), or floated out by the union as a possiblity. We were told in a SWAPA conference call that people would want to fly them, but most people didn't believe that at all. So maybe that would work out for someone like you that would like them. We all have different preferences for sure.

 

[PCL_128]

I think most guys might be surprised at how senior something like that would go. While the majority of pilots wouldn't like it, there is always a small group that really enjoys that sort of flying. Over on this side of the partition, red-eye turns and CDOs go very senior. I'm in the top half of the FO list, and I can't hold a CDO line right now, for example. I haven't looked at the 737 lines lately, but the last time I did, I couldn't hold the red-eye turns, either.

 

[Lear70]

It really depends.

You have a very small core of guys who like the Redeye turns because they live in base and want to be back home every day. A Redeye turn classic example is our ATL-PHX, basically a CDO (Continuous Duty Overnight, Nap or High-speed, depending on what regional you came from). It leaves base around 8 or 9 p.m., blocks into PHX around midnight Eastern time, leaves at 0200, and gets back into ATL around 0600.

With your rig, that would be basically 5.5 HOURS of pay on our side of the fence per duty period. 3 in a row over 4 days would pay 22 hours, which is in line with what most of our 737 lines do, 5-6 hours per day credit, but they don't leave until late and get in early, leaving you the whole day,,, allegedly. I'd collapse and be out most of the day after those, but I'm getting old.

Pre-bankruptcy those things used to pay around 7 hours a day at Legacy carriers, my Dad made 10 years of his career doing those, flying 2 back-to-back over 4 days with 24 hour overnights on the West Coast, making it a 28-hour 4 day. 3 of those a month was 84 hours of pay with 18-19 days off, so they went senior.

Here, they do NOT go senior unless they're on a LINE in ATL. In MKE, they go mid-level seniority, a few CA's and F/O's snatch them up, our MKE F/O rep is one of them. In ATL, there's enough people that like them that they don't get past the top 1/3 of each seat's seniority list. In MCO, the one redeye that was on our lines for the first time ever went almost very bottom of the pile junior.

When Daily open time comes open every month, the very first thing that happens is those line holders who have them scattered on their line drop as many of them to open time as they can, which forces our reserves to fly them, which is a constant complaint with the circadian rhythm "flipping". (We don't have to get someone to pick up our trips if there's good reserve coverage, we can just straight give them back to the company and wait for something else to come up that we like better).

For those of us in smaller bases, there's not enough reserve coverage to get rid of ANY trips, I haven't been able to drop anything the entire month. Therefore, if you get stuck with a redeye somewhere, you're probably just stuck with it.

As for how it will work at Southwest, it really depends on how they build them. With their aversion to soft time and desire to keep everyone maxed out, I'd be shocked if they built them into line of all red-eye flying (which is what they SHOULD do). Also, 40 redeye flights PER DAY sounds a bit high. Even if you had 10 city pairings originating red-eyes at night, you'd have to send them to BWI/MDW/MCO and a 4th East Coast base to get near 40. Do you have 10 West Coast cities that could originate red-eyes to every East Coast base?

Maybe that's a combined number with both of our companies integrated...?

 

[texman]

4 day that pays 22! Is that how its all ways been for yall?

 

[dloop11]

.............

 

[27 driver]

4 day that pays 22! Is that how its all ways been for yall?

We have 4 day trips that pay less than that.

 

[Ty Webb]

4 day that pays 22! Is that how its all ways been for yall?

It depends which aircraft, and what kind of flying you're bidding.

The 717 trips are generally more productive, but have more legs per day.

There are some productive 737 pairings, but the majority seem to be around 21-24 hours. They are, however, usually commutable on both ends.

If you are willing to work for it, you can usually get what you want or need. I'm still on my first wife, so I'll swap those productive four day trips for a commutable 3 or 4 day with long layovers out West or in the Caribbean. The guy with three wives picks up my productive 4 day, and everyone's happy . . .

 

[jonjuan]

Red-eyes as part of a day-scheduled trip are unsafe. Period.

The human body wasn't designed to flip-flop its circadian rhythm like that. That's why our company mainly makes red-eye only lines or at least puts 3 red eyes back-to-back rather than scheduling a day trip then a red-eye.

The worst pairings we have are those that fly a 3 day trip and the last day is a West Coast overnight followed by a red-eye return into domicile. People don't want to call fatigue out there because it's their last day and they're going home, so they suck it up and fly fatigued anyway, just to go home without a delay.

My body can't handle them, hasn't for a long time now, can't go to sleep in the middle of the day to be rested for the evening after being on a day routine all week. They really should only be flown by people who stay on a night rhythm for their entire pairing. Anything else is jeopardizing safety.

/soapbox

Problem is, many will still commute all day before they even start their trip. Heck, most are probably running errands, mowing tn lawn all day before the red eye kicks off. it happens very frequently.

 

[texman]

Sounds like the 717 does 5 to 6 legs a day.

 

[Ty Webb]

Sounds like the 717 does 5 to 6 legs a day.

I've never seen a 6 leg day on my schedule, or anyone else's . . . . Five-leg days were pretty rare, when I was on the 717. Three or four was pretty common.

My trip last week was a 3 day, with 4 legs total . . . Now, that's my kind of flying!

 

[PCL_128]

Sounds like the 717 does 5 to 6 legs a day.

Like Ty said, I've never seen a 6-leg day. I've seen a 5-leg day on occasion, but it's very rare. When I was flying regular lines, I typically had 2-3 legs per day. Typical would be 3 legs, 6-7 hours block, 8-10 hours duty.

 

[SWA Bubba]

.... I'm still on my first wife, . . . .

Don't worry, Ty. The flight attendants' union will take care of that little problem for you. It's in their contract, I think.... :blush:

Bubba

 

[ATLplt]

.……….......

 

[SWA Bubba]

2-4 daily. I haven't flown a 5 leg day in years. My last 3-day was 2/3/2.

Damn. My last five-leg day was last week! It is getting less common than it used to be, however, especially as our average stage length grows, but you still see a few of those days strewn around the lines here and there. Mostly up and down California, or bouncing around Texas. We call those days "Dallas appreciation days," or you're said to be doing the "Texas Two-Step."

Bubba

 

[humveedriver]

***************A7535 : 23JUN ONLY ON SAT BSE REPT: 2140L Operates: Jun 23 Only
Base/Equip: ATL/737 CA01FO01
DY DD DH C FLTNO DPS-ARS DEPL ARRL BLKT GRNT OA ******************** TBLK TDHD ***** TCRD TDUTY LAYOVER**********
SA 23 ***** ***** 423 ATL-PIT 2225 2357 *****0132 ***** ***** 0132 **************************************** **************************************** 0400 0232 PIT 1540
***** D-END: 0012L (NR 900) REPT: 1552L PIT Marriott Airport (412)788-8800
SU 24 ***** ***** 31 PIT-ATL 1637 1814 *****0137 0156 *****
SU 24 ***** ***** 318 ATL-SFO 2010 2215 *****0505 ***** ***** 0642 **************************************** **************************************** 0642 0938 SFO 2320
***** D-END: 2230L (NR 900) REPT: 2150L Marriott SFO Airport (650)692-9100
MO 25 ***** ***** 390 SFO-ATL 2235 0615 *****0440 ***** ***** 0440 **************************************** **************************************** 0440 0540 *****
***** D-END: 0630L ********** T.A.F.B.: 5650 ********** TRIP RIG: 0052 ********** *****
***** Total:***** 1254 0000 ***** 1614 1750 **********

An example of a low paying 4 day red eye. Trip ends at 0615 on the 26th and pays 16:14 hours credit. You would have to hate your life or live in San Fran to pick this trip up.

Ok last time I try to cut and paste that crap.

 

[Lear70]

Don't worry, Ty. The flight attendants' union will take care of that little problem for you. It's in their contract, I think.... :blush:

Bubba

Dude,,, you can't say something like that without warning, my fiance' is already giving me the "I'll cut your balls off" looks every time she travels and one of our hotter flight attendants is working the trip!

Like Ty said, the 737 lines are less productive than the 717 lines, driven primarily by the fact that we do international flights that, when added to another leg before or after, don't give us enough flight time to get back into the U.S. and don't have a lot of frequency from other cities, so you end up with 20-24 hours in CUN, PUJ, MBJ, AUA, etc, as well as West Coast trips with the same problem - no other place close on the West Coast to fly to either before or after you get there, so you end up with 20+ hour West Coast layovers.

The problem is that our line values on the 737 have been dropping steadily the last 6 months, especially in MCO, from an average 6.5 hr credit day on 6 hours of block to 6 hrs credit, then 5.5, now somewhere between 5 and 5.5 hours of credit average days on some trips, which is leaving us with 60-65 hours of block time per month just making guarantee, and they're only commutable on one side or another in MCO or MKE, whereas ATL trips are often commutable on both sides for the same credit (which is what I like to trade into).

However, as I mentioned earlier, the MCO and MKE bases don't have a lot of reserve coverage in terms of actual people since they're small bases, so you get "denied due to insufficient reserves" a lot when trying to dump a MCO or MKE trip and grab a higher-productivity ATL trip, so you get stuck with your original low-value trips, and since we can't piecemeal them out like you can, no one else has enough time to pick up a 3-day back to back with another 3 day, you hit your 30 in 7 too often.

I must say, I'm looking forward to how your system works once I get senior enough again to have more trips worth giving away that people would want. Our system works well whether you're junior or senior, but limits your options due to reserve coverage, whereas your system rewards seniority a little better and gives increased flexibility. Hope it doesn't get gutted in this next round of Sec 6... :erm:

 

[Lear70]

Trip Number: A7535
Operates : 23JUN
ONLY ON SAT

BSE REPT: 2140L
Base/Equip: ATL/737
CA01FO01

SA 23
423 ATL-PIT 2225 2357 0132
Layover PIT 1540
D-END: 0012L (NR 900) REPT: 1552L PIT Marriott Airport (412)788-8800

SU 24
31 PIT-ATL 1637 1814 0137 0156
318 ATL-SFO 2010 2215 0505
Layover SFO 2320
D-END: 2230L (NR 900) REPT: 2150L Marriott SFO Airport (650)692-9100

MO 25
390 SFO-ATL 2235 0615 0440
D-END: 0630L

T.A.F.B.: 5650
TRIP RIG: 0052
Total Block: 1254
Total Credit: 1614

An example of a low paying 4 day red eye. Trip ends at 0615 on the 26th and pays 16:14 hours credit. You would have to hate your life or live in San Fran to pick this trip up.

Fixed it for you.

 

[texman]

Lear, I am around your SR. I will say if you are 60 plus from the bottom in any base which you will be you can have a great schedule. Ellit will be your saving grace.

 

[Lear70]

Man, that's music to my ears. My family will appreciate that news, too...

 

[737tanker]

Also, 40 redeye flights PER DAY sounds a bit high

From what the BWI Reps were saying 15 of those would be for Hawaii and the other 25 would be in the lower 48.