SWAPA Comments about 717

[redflyer65]

I believe MCO is going to stay a base and ATL will be announced in the future. How well diss you expect to do NGSP?

 

[THEPRFCT10]

Ngsp. I feel sorry for you man. Life's tough I get it. I think you'll be upgrading sooner than 2023. With my juniority my upgrade says 2027--I'm hoping it'll be sooner than that.

 

[scoreboardII]

2027? We won't even be flying jets then.

 

[Full of LUV]

Dude, if you REALLY believe that SWAPA had a hand in this, then you clearly need a piss test. Your conspiracy theory may play well with the permanently pissed-off (and, of course, Dan Roman), but everyone else knows it's BS. GK consults SWAPA only when he's contractually obligated to do so. And that doesn't include the company's business decisions. Do you have a reason to be mad? Sure. But it's not a SWA/SWAPA conspiracy to screw you like you seem to think. It's GK doing business as HE sees fit, and the chips fall where they may. You guys say SWAPA guys don't know how ALPA and Airtran work, and you are probably right. But the converse is also true; you obviously don't know diddly-dick about how SWA management runs its airline.

This thread really needs to die. All it's doing is pissing people off, even the normally sane guys, with the usual suspects on both sides (and of course, Dan Roman) spinning each other into the ceiling. Take a breath, do some yoga, tap couple of flight attendants, whatever. Work on changing something that you can change.

Bubba

Bubba,
Refer to the original post of this thread....it's SWAPA leader who is gloating about the windfall due to the 717 parking....and you wonder why Citrus pilots are bent????

 

[737tanker]

750+ capts seat stolen with the sell of the b717. was just 300+

It was the AirTran MEC that turned down what SWAPA called SL9. It was SL9 that would have given all AirTran pilots SW pay as of April of this year. Additionally AirTran would have kept all would have kept all of their Capts seats for as long as the AirTran pilots wanted it. So don't blame everything on SWA and SWAPA, your MEC had a hand in this as well. SWAPA was trying to get what was best for the current SWAPA pilots (if they didn't they would have been subject to a DFR lawsuit) and GK kept them in the dark about the 717s as AirTran. SWAPA was just better at reading SWA management than ALPA.

 

[On Your Six]

Bubba, let me remind you of a few things...

"no SW pilot will be harmed"
"we gain nothing from this acquisition"
"IF integration occurs"
Comparisons made to the TWA/AA integration.
Rejoicing about the additional CA seats made available at our expense.
Pilots rallying for management at LUV HQ after ALPA declined AIP1.


SWAPA played a hand in this screw job from the beginning, probably even before the announcement was made public. There is no other logical reason why this went as lop-sided as it did. GK wants something from SWAPA. To say otherwise is being disingenuous at best.

Ouch. The truth will set you free. I also can't believe the letter from Chase. That's rough.


Godspeed!


The OYSter

 

[redflyer65]

It was the AirTran MEC that turned down what SWAPA called SL9. It was SL9 that would have given all AirTran pilots SW pay as of April of this year. Additionally AirTran would have kept all would have kept all of their Capts seats for as long as the AirTran pilots wanted it. So don't blame everything on SWA and SWAPA, your MEC had a hand in this as well. SWAPA was trying to get what was best for the current SWAPA pilots (if they didn't they would have been subject to a DFR lawsuit) and GK kept them in the dark about the 717s as AirTran. SWAPA was just better at reading SWA management than ALPA.

Your exactly right Tanker. There were plenty of people on here warning that Southwest plays hard ball. Hard core business decisons. No one believed us. I mean NO one. The first deal is usual the best when it comes to SW, and this whole SLI proved it. The voting is done and over.

 

[Clyde Frog]

It was the AirTran MEC that turned down what SWAPA called SL9. It was SL9 that would have given all AirTran pilots SW pay as of April of this year. Additionally AirTran would have kept all would have kept all of their Capts seats for as long as the AirTran pilots wanted it. So don't blame everything on SWA and SWAPA, your MEC had a hand in this as well. SWAPA was trying to get what was best for the current SWAPA pilots (if they didn't they would have been subject to a DFR lawsuit) and GK kept them in the dark about the 717s as AirTran. SWAPA was just better at reading SWA management than ALPA.

The AirTran MEC voted down the first proposal because it was an insulting slap to the face, the AT pilot group rallied and told them as much. Proposal #2 was jammed down our throats using threats and ultimatums. Anyone who can't see that isn't paying attention.

 

[madjack]

Oh brother

 

[Clyde Frog]

Oh brother is right. The truth can be a MFer.

 

[scoreboardII]

And ignorance of the contract you voted for is no excuse.

 

[737tanker]

The AirTran MEC voted down the first proposal because it was an insulting slap to the face.

Can you explain to me what was insulting about keeping 100% of your Capt seats (forever even if there was a decrease in overall Capts), getting SW pay while still on the AirTran side, and in the event of a furlough it would have been one for one (not seniority based)?

 

[carl p]

The fact that all of these open sores will fester for the next 3 years is sad. I understand there are operational issues and business decisions at work causing the integration to move at a snails pace but having 2 airlines within one is just not good...

 

[PCL_128]

Can you explain to me what was insulting about keeping 100% of your Capt seats (forever even if there was a decrease in overall Capts),

First of all, that's not even correct. The original SIA clearly stated that in the event of an overall reduction in the number of captains, then the protections for AirTran retention slots disappeared.

But even if that wasn't the case, it was still an incredibly insulting deal. A third of the pilot group getting stapled, peak loss of seniority at around 35% with the average loss around 25%, our junior captains forced to get bounced around the system on reserve for a decade because of that crazy monthly bid that you guys do, FOs that were just weeks away from an upgrade slot at AirTran now being stuck in the right seat until they retire, and the list goes on and on. It was insulting, and it was draconian.

getting SW pay while still on the AirTran side

That should have just been a given.

and in the event of a furlough it would have been one for one (not seniority based)?

Those sorts of ridiculous conditions and restrictions were only necessary because SWAPA refused to even consider a reasonable list. Without a fair list, then the conditions and restrictions have to be extensive in order to protect the group that is losing their seniority. And in the end, the C&Rs still were pretty pathetic, anyway.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Bubba,
Refer to the original post of this thread....it's SWAPA leader who is gloating about the windfall due to the 717 parking....and you wonder why Citrus pilots are bent????

Full,

I wasn't commenting on the SWAPA President's words to describe how management's latest change affected us OR you. I agree that it came off as gloating, and I can see why it pissed Airtran guys off. Trust me, I got it. I was simply saying that -9Capt's subsequent claim of a SWA/SWAPA conspiracy, alluded to in the terms of the SLI and the latest announcement regarding the 717, was absolutely, 100% wrong. Trust me, Southwest management doesn't work this way (nor do any other airlines I'm aware of).

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

Ouch. The truth will set you free. I also can't believe the letter from Chase. That's rough.


Godspeed!


The OYSter

Uh, you're replying to a comment that has nothing to do with what you're talking about. You're agreeing that Capt Chase's letter was bad while he's alleging a conspiracy.

On the other hand, at least you're not dead after all, like we all thought. Where you been?

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

Thanks for reminding me of these things, not that I needed reminding. Let me respond individually.

Bubba, let me remind you of a few things...

"no SW pilot will be harmed"
This was a SWAPA tagline to placate its members who were thinking they were getting screwed. It failed miserably, and is thrown back into SWAPA's face everyday on our forum by those very junior pilots who believe that they WERE screwed. This had nothing to do with the company.

"we gain nothing from this acquisition"
Not sure where you got this, other than it is a common lament by our junior guys who gained nothing from SWA's multi-billion dollar investment in buying Airtran, and wanted the company to use those billions to buy new airplanes instead, which, after appropriate hiring to staff, would increase EVERYONE'S seniority greatly.

"IF integration occurs"
This was part of what management used to get you and us to agree to the second deal. GK really, really, really wanted a voted SLI instead of an arbitrated one, and had his team craft the two SLIs. SWAPA had nothing to do with this.

Comparisons made to the TWA/AA integration.
You're absolutely right. Also comparisons to the Morris acquisitoin. Also people just chanting "staple, staple, staple." That was what a lot of people wanted for an opening position, but obviously wasn't gonna' happen. On the other hand, Airtran had guys pushing for straight relative, with your #1 (a 17-year ValueJet guy) being put in right behind our #1 (a 37-year guy). That also obviously wasn't gonna' happen. Junior line pilots demanding the world from their negotiators during a negotiation does not a conspiracy make.

Rejoicing about the additional CA seats made available at our expense.
SWAPA's president trying to mollify pissed off junior pilots who believe they got screwed by the SLI. Yes, it should have been kept private, and came across as gloating, but what the hell do you think he SHOULD have said to the angry junior pilots demanding his head?

Pilots rallying for management at LUV HQ after ALPA declined AIP1.
This was to demonstrate union solidarity. All Unions, including yours, do that sort of crap all the time. How's that a conspiracy?


SWAPA played a hand in this screw job from the beginning, probably even before the announcement was made public. There is no other logical reason why this went as lop-sided as it did. GK wants something from SWAPA. To say otherwise is being disingenuous at best.
LIke I said, this is 100% crap. You have no freakin' earthly idea how Southwest's management deals with its unions. None whatsoever. Although you WILL find out. GK does NOT consult SWAPA on such business decisions. Management makes decisions based on money, and keeping the company in the black without laying off anyone. That's pretty much it. They make decisions all the damn time that come across as screwing over SWAPA pilots. Trust me, you're nothing special in that regard. Just another business decision.

Bubba

 

[Full of LUV]

Full,

I wasn't commenting on the SWAPA President's words to describe how management's latest change affected us OR you. I agree that it came off as gloating, and I can see why it pissed Airtran guys off. Trust me, I got it. I was simply saying that -9Capt's subsequent claim of a SWA/SWAPA conspiracy, alluded to in the terms of the SLI and the latest announcement regarding the 717, was absolutely, 100% wrong. Trust me, Southwest management doesn't work this way (nor do any other airlines I'm aware of).

Bubba

I actually agree that the collusion charge is a bit much, as you have to agree that GK yielded a big stick to scare the AAI guys into an agreement.

1. Overall, it's sad that our industry has to pit seniority of groups against each other during a merger.

2. It's gonna be bad for SWA to operate as two separate airlines for the better part of three years with different pay, that is a lot of animosity to overcome. If you learned anything from DAL/NWA integration, it was the immediate payraise of the NWA group to DAL parity (plus a small token raise for the DAL group) that helped everyone swallow hard and pull together.

3. In the end, the vaunted culture of SWA apparently isn't worth pay parity in GK's eyes, as the cost savings of running a diminishing B scale for the next three years outweigh any labor relations to be gained?

Actual question..... what happened to the rest of AAI workforce, are they waiting for full integration for SWA pay to kick in?
LUV

 

[SWA Bubba]

I actually agree that the collusion charge is a bit much, as you have to agree that GK yielded a big stick to scare the AAI guys into an agreement.

1. Overall, it's sad that our industry has to pit seniority of groups against each other during a merger.

2. It's gonna be bad for SWA to operate as two separate airlines for the better part of three years with different pay, that is a lot of animosity to overcome. If you learned anything from DAL/NWA integration, it was the immediate payraise of the NWA group to DAL parity (plus a small token raise for the DAL group) that helped everyone swallow hard and pull together.

3. In the end, the vaunted culture of SWA apparently isn't worth pay parity in GK's eyes, as the cost savings of running a diminishing B scale for the next three years outweigh any labor relations to be gained?

Actual question..... what happened to the rest of AAI workforce, are they waiting for full integration for SWA pay to kick in?
LUV

My opinion is that I agree with your first two statements, and it appears that the third statement is likewise true. GK clearly weilds a big stick. He shows it to us on occasion as well. As far as the "actual questiion," I don't know the answer for sure. I believe that they all transition to SWA pay when they transition to SWA jobs. I know that's the case with the flight attendants; the first ones are going through training now.

Bubba

 

[THEPRFCT10]

First of all, that's not even correct. The original SIA clearly stated that in the event of an overall reduction in the number of captains, then the protections for AirTran retention slots disappeared.

But even if that wasn't the case, it was still an incredibly insulting deal. A third of the pilot group getting stapled, peak loss of seniority at around 35% with the average loss around 25%, our junior captains forced to get bounced around the system on reserve for a decade because of that crazy monthly bid that you guys do, FOs that were just weeks away from an upgrade slot at AirTran now being stuck in the right seat until they retire, and the list goes on and on. It was insulting, and it was draconian.



That should have just been a given.



Those sorts of ridiculous conditions and restrictions were only necessary because SWAPA refused to even consider a reasonable list. Without a fair list, then the conditions and restrictions have to be extensive in order to protect the group that is losing their seniority. And in the end, the C&Rs still were pretty pathetic, anyway.

I truly hope you are a minority. I'll say it again, where would AT be if SWA did not aquire it? Just a thought, not meant to be condescending. Were AT pilots getting ready to strike? At least we have a job, like it or not we have to move on. I met my first AT guy in the lounge last week. Seemed like a good guy very willing to get up to speed on things.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

I truly hope you are a minority. I'll say it again, where would AT be if SWA did not aquire it? Just a thought, not meant to be condescending. Were AT pilots getting ready to strike? At least we have a job, like it or not we have to move on. I met my first AT guy in the lounge last week. Seemed like a good guy very willing to get up to speed on things.

We'll never know where AT would have been. However, looking at all the metrics, AT was further ahead than SW was at the same time in their life-cycle. I'll never credit SW for "saving us".

As far as the strike, voting to authorize your leadership to call a strike and actually going on strike and participating are two separate things. As you can see from our pilot group, there was only about a 13% chance that we'd actually have gone out on strike.

 

[boeing717]

] In truth, this is going to continue to play out for a while if Southwest Management doesn't throw us a bone; the Association has been very clear to explain that to management, which is why they're heading to Dallas on Wednesday, but the infighting between pilot groups on here isn't productive towards that end.

So if SWA throws a bone by giving all Air Tran pilots SWAPA pay now do you really think that will satisfy everybody? You won't be satisfied even after 2015. You will be complain about seniority and Captain seats until you retire. Like someone said, you voted and now you live by the vote. It is over.

 

[redflyer65]

PCL,

The "insulting deal" as you put it was negotiated by both parties I believe. You left that part out conveniently. Just to set the record straight.

 

[Dan Roman]

PCL,

The "insulting deal" as you put it was negotiated by both parties I believe. You left that part out conveniently. Just to set the record straight.

If you are going to set the record straight, make sure you include what they were told if they didn't accept the second offer.

 

[Ty Webb]

So if SWA throws a bone by giving all Air Tran pilots SWAPA pay now do you really think that will satisfy everybody? You won't be satisfied even after 2015. You will be complain about seniority and Captain seats until you retire. Like someone said, you voted and now you live by the vote. It is over.

You seem to be the one who can't give it up, CP.

Don't suck any green bananas. :laugh:

 

[scoreboardII]

Embrace the suck guys, it's the same on both sides.

 

[Clyde Frog]

PCL,

The "insulting deal" as you put it was negotiated by both parties I believe. You left that part out conveniently. Just to set the record straight.

AirTran pilots negotiated nothing. This was a "proposal" that came with ultimatums. We had absolutely no say in any of this. We were told to vote in favor or risk eventual unemployment. Not very conducive to fostering your "culture".

Now the record is set straight.

 

[Uppercrust]

Embrace the suck guys, it's the same on both sides.

You lose 40% seniority and your Capt seat and tell me how much more it sucks.

 

[FlyinGuy]

Blah,blah,blah.....

I'll say it again, this was GK's deal!!! SWAPA was along for the ride just like you were. Did we sit closer to the table? Sure we did, because we were part of the original gang but don't fool yourself into thinking that we had any control in what was going on.

What I would highly encourage each of you to do (AT peeps) is to press your union to plead for Swapa rates now!! The SLI is over and we have to share cockpits from this day fwd. Best of luck and try to keep your stress low. See ya on the line.

 

[SWA Bubba]

You lose 40% seniority and your Capt seat and tell me how much more it sucks.

Crusty,

You saying that you "lost 40% seniority," basing the difference between your standing on the Airtran list compared to the overall list is disingenuous. It assumes straight relative is the unequivocal definition of "fair," in that the 17-year Airtran pilot job was exactly equivalent to a 37-year Southwest pilot job. It's not that simple, and you know it. It's like SWA junior guys bitching that they lost seniority because you weren't all stapled "in return for your payraise." Basing your argument on a negotiating extreme (either one) that everyone knew wasn't going to happen may make YOU feel like you have a stronger argument, but in reality it does nothing for the people you're arguing with, except possibly driving them to using extreme argument bases.

You feel you got screwed. Got it. Really, I do. Newsflash: there's lots of SWA folks who also feel that they got screwed. You want to shout to the world that you got screwed worse? Knock yourself out. However, you're barking up the wrong tree. The SWA pilots didn't do this to you, anymore than you did it to them. Also, the SWA pilots aren't in a position to DO anything about the "screwing" that anyone is taking, any more than you are. You should probably address your concerns to management; you know, the only people who can change your position in life. Write GK a letter. Or not. But you might consider not wasting your venom on people who didn't do this to you. Do you bitch at your family too, for your self-annointed sorry lot in life? It would probably have the same effect.

Bubba