SWAPA Comments about 717

[Citrusflyer]

Has the ATL base been announced? When will that happen?

IMHO, Delta wouldn't agree to take 88 airplanes from their (now) largest competitor; while all the while Airbus keeps knocking on the door with a better deal. UNLESS, part of the agreement (the 'handshake' part) involves SWA agreeing to 'downsize' the ATL. Oh, keep some movement through the city (less than 15 RON), keep some close-in international, but no real presence to hamper the Widget. Now the 717's look like a better deal. Politics and business rule the day. The non-base announcement will come next year, after tempers cool.

Atlanta will not be a base, not for a very long time.

 

[humveedriver]

IMHO, Delta wouldn't agree to take 88 airplanes from their (now) largest competitor; while all the while Airbus keeps knocking on the door with a better deal. UNLESS, part of the agreement (the 'handshake' part) involves SWA agreeing to 'downsize' the ATL. Oh, keep some movement through the city (less than 15 RON), keep some close-in international, but no real presence to hamper the Widget. Now the 717's look like a better deal. Politics and business rule the day. The non-base announcement will come next year, after tempers cool.

Atlanta will not be a base, not for a very long time.

I also agree with that possibility as well. But I think there is too much going on and alot that could change. We will just have to see. SWA has to convert all the 717 gates to 737 gates. I dont know what that footprint looks like or how many daily flights it translates into. Since it is obviously less gate space based on wing span, I draw the conclusion that the future of ATL for SWA is a smaller domicile than what we have now. Could it mean no Domicile, maybe.

 

[redflyer65]

I still think ATL will be a domicle. Reading CM's new message today, he seems to telegraph that move. Maybe too much reading between the lines? Possibly.

 

[scoreboardII]

I just read Chucks letter as well, it comes of just like every other letter he has published which essentially said "we are concerned that you are concerned, but you signed a contract so suck it up fatty".

 

[Lear70]

i just read chucks letter as well, it comes of just like every other letter he has published which essentially said "we are concerned that you are concerned, but you signed a contract so suck it up fatty".

^^^ we have a winner ^^^

 

[madjack]

I read the letter and it sounded like the company knows the AAI guys are getting their cheese moved and knows the ATL domicile is important to the folks at AAI...

 

[PCL_128]

1- So you thought you could do better than a 28% pay increase without SW? Seriously?

You're looking at a single longevity step in a single seat when you come up with that number. The actual increase to pilot payroll was not 28%. It was about 20%. Prior to the merger announcement, we were expecting something in the range of 25-30%, which was still less than what many pilots were demanding. Accepting a mere 20% increase to pilot payroll was a concession on the part of this pilot group because our leverage was pulled out from under us when that announcement was made. The NMB had been putting pressure on management, but they immediately pulled back when the merger was announced. They didn't want to get in the middle of a billion dollar transaction.

2- I know more about your negotiations than you may think.

You really don't.

 

[Lear70]

I read the letter and it sounded like the company knows the AAI guys are getting their cheese moved and knows the ATL domicile is important to the folks at AAI...

Reading between the lines, the letter is managing expectations, both for WHAT they plan to do to ease the damage done by the early departure of the 717 (ATL base) and WHEN we can expect to hear more about it.

It also is saying that they still are waiting on the Delta T.A. vote to determine how they will do the training flow. Again, it's pretty clear they want to close MKE first and MCO shortly thereafter, having SWA doing the vast majority of that flying. Chuckles sent a blast email from the last MCO meeting last week saying that our manager of scheduling said we will be down to 5 Originating flights per day out of MCO by the Fall. You can't support a base with that.

Basically it was a letter that said, "Standby, we won't be able to figure out the whole puzzle and get the new plan to you until after the Delta T.A. vote, and after we work with ALPA to find a new way to implement the transition, since there is no way to bring people over except by the flush bid which requires them to go to SWA 717 which won't exist, and the only bone we are considering throwing you in all this is the ATL domicile which we won't do until fleet planning says it needs to happen".

A system re-bid may be required and, if it is, the inviolability clause for the rest of the agreement allows them to change that without changing the rest of the SIA. The question is, what will AAI ALPA convince SWA to give up in exchange for changing that provision of the SIA? That's the only leverage we have, unless we want to push harder, which might make them re-think the furlough lever they can pull.

Tricky stuff.

 

[dicko]

Two things dicko,

1- So you thought you could do better than a 28% pay increase without SW? Seriously?

2- I know more about your negotiations than you may think. How many sections were open? Which ones were they?

That completely disappeared when SW made the announcement.

Red,

As I said before; if you believe that you have nothing to learn about something that you weren't anywhere near, there is no point in discussing it.

Now, pop next door and tell your neighbor where he went wrong when he was courting his second girlfriend in 1992. He'll appreciate your insights.

 

[redflyer65]

Hey, you stay classy Dicko!

 

[scoreboardII]

The question is, what will AAI ALPA convince SWA to give up in exchange for changing that provision of the SIA? That's the only leverage we have, unless we want to push harder, which might make them re-think the furlough lever they can pull.

Tricky stuff.

Tricky indeed, one red cent is all it takes for SWAPA to file suit.

 

[27 driver]

Tricky indeed, one red cent is all it takes for SWAPA to file suit.

So you want the AAI guys paid less. SWAPA shouldn't have any input on negotiations that happen on our side of the partition. They don't want to represent us. Are you saying that if we are offered anything SWAPA will grieve it? If so that sucks.

 

[FIREMAN]

Tricky indeed, one red cent is all it takes for SWAPA to file suit.

And that explains how we got here. What a bunch of unbelievable ****************************************.

 

[wood pecker]

In the last month I flew with 3 AAI 717 capt that want a re-bid purely for becoming a top FO in DEN which wasn't a choice until after our first bid. Has any math been done to see how many people would run to DEN yet?

 

[PCL_128]

Tricky indeed, one red cent is all it takes for SWAPA to file suit.

And on what grounds exactly would that suit be filed?

 

[Stewie]

Tricky indeed, one red cent is all it takes for SWAPA to file suit.

Wow. You didn't get enough already? A bone thrown to AAI guys that doesn't affect you at all will make you want more? You'll be fun to work with. Can't wait.

 

[Spud]

tricky indeed, one red cent is all it takes for swapa to file suit.

wow...

 

[madjack]

Good news: there will be no lawsuit by SWAPA
Bad news: there will be no money

I hope I am wrong (about the money)

 

[scoreboardII]

Has nothing to do with money, but if SWA decides to payoff some AT guys beyond the SLI agreement, SWAPA will be there to remind them of the other 6500 pilots.

Welcome aboard.

 

[redflyer65]

Just as if Southwest elected to award 1000 shares of stock to all SWAPA members for a job well done. I don't think that would go over very well either.

 

[malibuVride]

That's the only leverage we have, unless we want to push harder, which might make them re-think the furlough lever they can pull.

Tricky stuff.

I don't quite understand why fragmentation language won't apply. Maybe SWA mgmt can't be forced into it by SWAPA, but what if the ATN pilots desire to be sent away via fragmentation? There are many that just don't care to be SWA pilots at this point. So why not let us go? Everybody wins.

 

[MILF Hunter]

So you want the AAI guys paid less. SWAPA shouldn't have any input on negotiations that happen on our side of the partition. They don't want to represent us. Are you saying that if we are offered anything SWAPA will grieve it? If so that sucks.

Its just principle. The ATN MEC said no to the first SLI. In the second, money was taken off the table but more seniority was shifted to their side. Because the two (pay and seniority) were so directly linked through the negotiations that led up to the final deal, it simply would be wrong to address only one part now.

By your logic, we could say that the 717 deal negatively affects the bidding seniority of some of our junior FOs therefore we need mgmt to change the SLI a bit.

 

[PanPan]

Its just principle. The ATN MEC said no to the first SLI. In the second, money was taken off the table but more seniority was shifted to their side. Because the two (pay and seniority) were so directly linked through the negotiations that led up to the final deal, it simply would be wrong to address only one part now.

By your logic, we could say that the 717 deal negatively affects the bidding seniority of some of our junior FOs therefore we need mgmt to change the SLI a bit.

No need to change anything in the SLI agreement. Simply amend the FL contract to mirror SW rates now. Then create one of your side letters that increases OSW guys longevity for pay by a bit. Your longevity for pay doesn't affect my life and my pay rate at AT doesn't affect yours.

 

[texman]

Lear or somebody explain how the 717 going away sooner makes SWA financially responsible to pay more before 2015. Just asking a question, so Don't get fired up people.

 

[dicko]

Just as if Southwest elected to award 1000 shares of stock to all SWAPA members for a job well done. I don't think that would go over very well either.

Nor would it surprise a single AirTran pilot. Perhaps SWAPA needs to join USAPA. Same culture.

 

[texman]

Ahhhhhh, the litte bear is out!lol

 

[FlyinGuy]

There will be no money!!! I hope none of you are setting your expectations too high. GK will not do any payouts. That is just how he negotiates. The only carrot that GK could possibly offer to the AT side is to come up to or closer to SWA rates. IMO, that will never happen because he does not like to let go of the money.

AT ALPA will go into negotiate with GK expecting some payout or increase in pay and they will come out with a "no furlough" promise. They will also get some type of ATL domicile guarantee. Those do not cost him anything, but he will pressure you guys to take the "offer". What will upset his cart is if you guys tell him to stick it and challenge him to furlough!! That is a scary game of chicken to play (especially for those on the bottom), but that will be the only way to call his bluff. He does not want to be the guy that furloughed, but I also think he would go that route way before Herb ever would have.

Best of luck to us all.

 

[redflyer65]

There will be no money!!! I hope none of you are setting your expectations too high. GK will not do any payouts. That is just how he negotiates. The only carrot that GK could possibly offer to the AT side is to come up to or closer to SWA rates. IMO, that will never happen because he does not like to let go of the money.

AT ALPA will go into negotiate with GK expecting some payout or increase in pay and they will come out with a "no furlough" promise. They will also get some type of ATL domicile guarantee. Those do not cost him anything, but he will pressure you guys to take the "offer". What will upset his cart is if you guys tell him to stick it and challenge him to furlough!! That is a scary game of chicken to play (especially for those on the bottom), but that will be the only way to call his bluff. He does not want to be the guy that furloughed, but I also think he would go that route way before Herb ever would have.

Best of luck to us all.

This ^^^^^

Quit crying Dicko, the agreement is the agreement....ON BOTH SIDES.

 

[27 driver]

Its just principle. The ATN MEC said no to the first SLI. In the second, money was taken off the table but more seniority was shifted to their side. Because the two (pay and seniority) were so directly linked through the negotiations that led up to the final deal, it simply would be wrong to address only one part now.

By your logic, we could say that the 717 deal negatively affects the bidding seniority of some of our junior FOs therefore we need mgmt to change the SLI a bit.

Deleted. Not worth it.

 

[waveflyer]

I don't quite understand why fragmentation language won't apply. Maybe SWA mgmt can't be forced into it by SWAPA, but what if the ATN pilots desire to be sent away via fragmentation? There are many that just don't care to be SWA pilots at this point. So why not let us go? Everybody wins.

Agree 100%

People are happier when they have a choice-