SWAPA Comments about 717

[ASADFW7]

Hi this is the AAI-SWA SLI help line how can I help you?

 

[THEPRFCT10]

The upgrade calculator at SWAPA for me went from 13 years pre aquisition to 2027 (19 years) post aquisition!!! Nuff said.

 

[Lear70]

The upgrade calculator at SWAPA for me went from 13 years pre aquisition to 2027 (19 years) post aquisition!!! Nuff said.

Yup.

Like I said, many on both sides were affected negatively in this deal, some more than others, or in different ways. The only thing we can do is find the positives where we can, be thankful for what we have, and move on down the road.

Anything else just isn't productive or helpful.

 

[MILF Hunter]

Praying for more growth, organically, please.

That's exactly what we had been praying for over the last several years. No offense, but you can see how that turned out.

 

[JT12345]

Ummm, no, not really, no.

I made just shy of $100k last year and both of my friends at my same longevity at Southwest made $137k and 142k respectfully. They also were gone more days than I was from home (I average 18 days off, they average 16).

Lear is lazier than me.

I made over 112k last year. I have less years pay/seniority than him. I have commutable weekends off too and yeah I work hard at it.

Looking at 120-130k on reserve at SWA and my exposure to furlough is so much worse. Doubt I can even hold weekends all off on reserve overthere.

Double pay is a good joke though. Well maybe after a year here and they gut the fleet and I am on reserve at Airtran it will be double when I am back at guarantee pay? Nope still not close.

 

[j41driver]

Looking at 120-130k on reserve at SWA and my exposure to furlough is so much worse.

Not following you here...how could the furlough exposure be worse for you on the SWA side when one of the agreements (don't recall exactly which one) states that if furloughs become necessary, they are to happen on the AT side first?

 

[vixin]

Are those pre or post notice earnings and rates? I know, you guys were ready to strike and you would have gotten way better then your current rates and benefits.

J41 if he is one of he last to come over or close to the bottom afterwards then I guess his "exposure to fulough" may be worse.

 

[scoreboardII]

there is no real threat of furlough, but our extreme, yes extreme overmanning will be used against us this section 6.

 

[PCL_128]

How can you be overmanned with only 8% reserve coverage?

 

[humveedriver]

The article that Tex posted on another thread said 4% reduction in trips for 3rd quarter and 5% reduction of trips for 4th quarter. Not sure if those numbers are on top of regular seasonal drawdown or just the total off season drawdown.

 

[texman]

The article that Tex posted on another thread said 4% reduction in trips for 3rd quarter and 5% reduction of trips for 4th quarter. Not sure if those numbers are on top of regular seasonal drawdown or just the total off season drawdown.

I think they are. I will let y'all know

 

[redflyer65]

Ummm, no, not really, no.

I made just shy of $100k last year and both of my friends at my same longevity at Southwest made $137k and 142k respectfully.

Lear,

You make alot of good points and I agree with most of them, but when it comes to pay, these are the numbers. (and I'll use guarantee numbers on both sides...apples to apples)


AAI 6yr FO - 70hrs X 74 = 5180 (pre-SW)

SW 6yr FO - 79trips X 119 = 9400

I may have been off slightly but not by much. 82% increase in pay since Southwest stepped in.

The new AAI payscale is around 95/hr which got everyone alot closer to what you should have been paid to begin with. The repressive AAI management kept you guys way down and under their thumb for too long.

 

[PCL_128]

Our 2001 CBA pay rates are irrelevant.

 

[redflyer65]

PCL,

That's exactly what you were getting paid the day SW stated they were buying you.

How is that irrelevant?

 

[Lear70]

Lear,

You make alot of good points and I agree with most of them, but when it comes to pay, these are the numbers. (and I'll use guarantee numbers on both sides...apples to apples)


AAI 6yr FO - 70hrs X 74 = 5180 (pre-SW)

SW 6yr FO - 79trips X 119 = 9400

I may have been off slightly but not by much. 82% increase in pay since Southwest stepped in.

The new AAI payscale is around 95/hr which got everyone alot closer to what you should have been paid to begin with. The repressive AAI management kept you guys way down and under their thumb for too long.

I agree with your last paragraph, but your whole first section of analysis just isn't something we are looking at or even considering.

If we had voted down the 2nd SLI we would STILL be at the pay rates we are currently under. Therefore, THOSE are the starting rates when comparing what we will make (or not make) at Southwest.

What we are looking at NOW is that BEFORE we signed SIA 2, we were making an average of 80-85 hours of credit per month times roughly $90 an hour for our 6th year F/O's.

Since then, with the draw-down, we're all at or near guarantee for the next 2 1/2 years. It's a loss of 7-8 hours a month for a guy like me who bids max time at home, 10+ for our guys like JT12345 who bid for the money.

Trying to get us to use a rate that hasn't been in practice for nearly 2 years when comparing incomes just isn't something we will do. We would have gotten very close to that (I think more) taking the issue to a strike (last contract negotiations), I have no doubt of that, nor do the rest of our pilots.

You may not agree with that way of thinking and everyone has their own way of thinking, but that's how we see it, and our perception is our reality, as is the actual cash in our pocket for 2011 before the big flying draw-down compared to what we actually will make in 2012-2015, compared to SWA rates post 1/1/15.

I see your point, but we are looking at cash in our pockets NOW versus when we cross the partition.

 

[redflyer65]

I agree with your last paragraph, but your whole first section of analysis just isn't something we are looking at or even considering.

If we had voted down the 2nd SLI we would STILL be at the pay rates we are currently under. Therefore, THOSE are the starting rates when comparing what we will make (or not make) at Southwest.

What we are looking at NOW is that BEFORE we signed SIA 2, we were making an average of 80-85 hours of credit per month times roughly $90 an hour for our 6th year F/O's.

Since then, with the draw-down, we're all at or near guarantee for the next 2 1/2 years. It's a loss of 7-8 hours a month for a guy like me who bids max time at home, 10+ for our guys like JT12345 who bid for the money.

Trying to get us to use a rate that hasn't been in practice for nearly 2 years when comparing incomes just isn't something we will do. We would have gotten very close to that (I think more) taking the issue to a strike (last contract negotiations), I have no doubt of that, nor do the rest of our pilots.

You may not agree with that way of thinking and everyone has their own way of thinking, but that's how we see it, and our perception is our reality, as is the actual cash in our pocket for 2011 before the big flying draw-down compared to what we actually will make in 2012-2015, compared to SWA rates post 1/1/15.

I see your point, but we are looking at cash in our pockets NOW versus when we cross the partition.

I understand what your saying and can sympathize. That's why I compared min guarantee to min guarantee. I knew when the SW purchase was announced that your payrates where going to change soon. SW didn't want any part of the AAI labor strife. Then poof, a new offer. Those two actions were tied at the hip, and I knew then that the AAI guys would claim that SW had nothing to do with it. It brings me no joy to here that you guys are getting min guarantee. It just doesn't seem right. I feel like I'm done arguing these monetary points but then someone comes on here complaining about XYZ. Everyone will be coming over. No furloughs.

I'm ready for you guys to come over here now and lets get this get this train rolling. This long drawn-out delay sucks but I guess management got what they wanted in that regard.

 

[dicko]

I think I keep running in to the 10%.....uke:

Fascinating. Since the only common factor in these encounters is the fact that you're there - Maybe it's just you.

 

[dicko]

It must suck to double your salary

So far we've got a 20% pay cut from our AirTran pay due to SWA putting us all on minimum guarantee. SWA FO pay may cover AirTran Captain pay in 3 years time.

A 20% pay cut caused by SWA, for 15% of my remaining career is the reality.

Try again.

 

[Lear70]

I understand what your saying and can sympathize. That's why I compared min guarantee to min guarantee. I knew when the SW purchase was announced that your payrates where going to change soon. SW didn't want any part of the AAI labor strife. Then poof, a new offer. Those two actions were tied at the hip, and I knew then that the AAI guys would claim that SW had nothing to do with it. It brings me no joy to here that you guys are getting min guarantee. It just doesn't seem right. I feel like I'm done arguing these monetary points but then someone comes on here complaining about XYZ. Everyone will be coming over. No furloughs.

I'm ready for you guys to come over here now and lets get this get this train rolling. This long drawn-out delay sucks but I guess management got what they wanted in that regard.

Oh I know, wasn't trying to start an argument, the whole "double your money" thing we hear from time to time just grates on our nerves, similar to us saying you guys don't share any of the pain in this deal. Just trying to interject some real-world numbers in there, should have just shut my yapper.

And yes, I agree 100% that the quick resolution to our contract fight was driven largely by Southwest management, but I do know we would have gotten to those rates, it just likely would have taken another 6 months to a year.

I'm not hugely concerned about furloughs, either (never rule them out but it seems as though the plan we know at the moment with the delay of the Classic retirements will solve that problem). It's just going to be a long process. Hard to "move on" when every few months there's "something else" that pretty much resets the clock. It'll be fine eventually, just gotta keep on keeping on. :beer:

 

[Lear70]

Fascinating. Since the only common factor in these encounters is the fact that you're there - Maybe it's just you.

LOL - I was thinking more along the lines that it's a lot more than just 10% of us that are torqued at the moment, which is probably what he's seeing out there on the line.

Eventually it'll just be the 10%'ers, but for right now it's more like the 50%'ers.

 

[redflyer65]

You wanna keep talking about dicko?

Cool. Your 6year FO payrate went from 74/hr to 95/hr as soon as Southwest stepped in. That's a 28% immediate impact on your hourly rates. I agree you guys should be working hard this summer and making more than min, I'm not sure what Dallas is thinking. That part is crazy.

 

[dicko]

LOL - I was thinking more along the lines that it's a lot more than just 10% of us that are torqued at the moment, which is probably what he's seeing out there on the line.

Eventually it'll just be the 10%'ers, but for right now it's more like the 50%'ers.

Agree. The 10% are the ones not pissed off. I've been a little surprised by the anger from FO's.

 

[StopNTSing]

How can you be overmanned with only 8% reserve coverage?

Because Southwest doesn't want to pay pilots to stay home....even pilots on reserve.

Honestly PCL, I can't wait for you to come across the partition so you will finally know from where you speak about SWA.

 

[redflyer65]

Oh I know, wasn't trying to start an argument, the whole "double your money" thing we hear from time to time just grates on our nerves, similar to us saying you guys don't share any of the pain in this deal. Just trying to interject some real-world numbers in there, should have just shut my yapper.

And yes, I agree 100% that the quick resolution to our contract fight was driven largely by Southwest management, but I do know we would have gotten to those rates, it just likely would have taken another 6 months to a year.

I'm not hugely concerned about furloughs, either (never rule them out but it seems as though the plan we know at the moment with the delay of the Classic retirements will solve that problem). It's just going to be a long process. Hard to "move on" when every few months there's "something else" that pretty much resets the clock. It'll be fine eventually, just gotta keep on keeping on. :beer:

Good level headed post Lear. I agree. We both have our 10%ers and those with hurt feelings. I prefer to be part of the 90% and welcome you guys over. Yapper closed!

 

[dicko]

You wanna keep talking about dicko?

Cool. Your 6year FO payrate went from 74/hr to 95/hr as soon as Southwest stepped in. That's a 28% immediate impact on your hourly rates. I agree you guys should be working hard this summer and making more than min, I'm not sure what Dallas is thinking. That part is crazy.

Our contract was signed under time pressure from SWA. That put downward pressure on it for us. It would have been a better contract without the SWA effect.

You'd think I was a fool if I suddenly became an expert on SWAPA Section 6 negotiations wouldn't you Red ? You're making the same mistake, making assumptions based on a lack of knowledge. There are people here whose names are signed on the CBA that you are suddenly an expert on.

 

[Uppercrust]

Agree. The 10% are the ones not pissed off. I've been a little surprised by the anger from FO's.

Its gonna get a lot worse before the summer is out. We're a proud close group here.

 

[Flyer1015]

Has the ATL base been announced? When will that happen?

 

[jball2]

Being pissed off is one thing. Taking it out on each other is another. I understand why the AT guys are pissed. I would be too. But, when I get lectured about what "I" supposedly did to the AT pilots I wonder about that persons abilty make sound decisions based on this thought process. I am just along for the ride too. Note, this has only happened twice, my only reply to both was " none of this was my idea." Most of the AT folks have still been very accommodating and professional.

 

[humveedriver]

Has the ATL base been announced? When will that happen?

No official word yet on the pilot side. FA's will see a base no later than 2015 according to their agreement (as it was explained to me). ATL will be a base when it makes sense for SWA to make it a base. How and when they decide to do that is going to depend on the transition of aircraft and crews from AT to SWA. So right now there are a bunch of AT 717/737 aircraft base in ATL doing AirTran flying. SWA will have to decrease that flying considerably before opening a SWA domicile. We do alot of connections through ATL and Int'l flying. Since at the present time none of that flying can connect through SWA reservations, you have two distinct pots you are tryin to fill at one time. This is why the transition is going so slow. At some point (2014) SWA will have to make some bold moves and accept more risk with the transition, but for now, they are taking it slow, getting as much done as possible, before pulling the trigger on the main effort. The trigger in all of this, is getting the new res system (Amadeus) operational on the SWA side.

 

[redflyer65]

Our contract was signed under time pressure from SWA. That put downward pressure on it for us. It would have been a better contract without the SWA effect.

You'd think I was a fool if I suddenly became an expert on SWAPA Section 6 negotiations wouldn't you Red ? You're making the same mistake, making assumptions based on a lack of knowledge. There are people here whose names are signed on the CBA that you are suddenly an expert on.

Two things dicko,

1- So you thought you could do better than a 28% pay increase without SW? Seriously?

2- I know more about your negotiations than you may think. How many sections were open? Which ones were they?

That completely disappeared when SW made the announcement.