SWA wants to fly from HOU to MEX and SouthAmerica

[SKC]

This time the underdog is UCAL and this close call needs to go our way on Hobby. It's the right thing to do.

So, which way is it going to be, Flop? You can't tout both lines.

Is United the underdog, weaker carrier that will suffer greatly if things don't go their way? OR Are they a bigger carrier with a much more robust intl operations in Houston that really doesn't have anything to worry about?

You claim that Unitental has spent Billions of dollars at IAH and that there's no way SWA can compete at that level, and Unitental will demolish them. If that's true, why the two-faced argument? If UA is that great, why the fear that the city of Houston will allow intl ops from a secondary airport?

Don't spout "it's the right thing to do", or "gentlemen's agreement" non-sense, just tell me why you're afraid if UA is as great as you say?

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Is the Majority of Mexico flying for Continental still done by Expressjet? That makes the CASM comparison even more dramatic. Only destination I did not fly to in Mexico was Cancun in the ERJ. What percentage of the seat miles is even done by UAL/CAL pilots out of Houston into Mexico?

 

[Flopgut]

So, which way is it going to be, Flop? You can't tout both lines.

Is United the underdog, weaker carrier that will suffer greatly if things don't go their way? OR Are they a bigger carrier with a much more robust intl operations in Houston that really doesn't have anything to worry about?

You claim that Unitental has spent Billions of dollars at IAH and that there's no way SWA can compete at that level, and Unitental will demolish them. If that's true, why the two-faced argument? If UA is that great, why the fear that the city of Houston will allow intl ops from a secondary airport?

Don't spout "it's the right thing to do", or "gentlemen's agreement" non-sense, just tell me why you're afraid if UA is as great as you say?

As I have said throughout this thread, if you come to IAH and beat us, good for you!

I'm in favor of a fair fight. Handing SWA another broadly anit-competitive construct like was used to launch them out of the crib is the wrong thing to do.

Go back and read the thread...

 

[SKC]

As I have said throughout this thread, if you come to IAH and beat us, good for you!

I'm in favor of a fair fight. Handing SWA the another broadly anit-competitive construct like was used to launch them out of the crib is the wrong thing to do.

Go back and read the thread...

Got it. You don't have a real answer.

 

[redflyer65]

We are also the only airline that has been around since deregulation that hasn't filed bankruptcy, and some have filed more than once. You are right, not everybody has played by the rules, most have used bankruptcy as some sort of liabilities vanishing act.

ERJ,

Here's his statement. He says Southwest hasn't gone through bankruptcy and you see that as arrogant? Kind of a stretch I'd say.

 

[humveedriver]

As I have said throughout this thread, if you come to IAH and beat us, good for you!

I'm in favor of a fair fight. Handing SWA another broadly anit-competitive construct like was used to launch them out of the crib is the wrong thing to do.

Go back and read the thread...

Flop, that's your definition of a fair fight. There are other opinions. What United has in IAH is a fortress hub. That is not fair fight. The city has a hand in developing airports and fortress hubs for airlines. If that's what they want, that's what they will get. See pages 9 and 10 of the link below. I think the Ual/Cal merger strengthens SWA's argument.

http://www.consumerfed.org/pdfs/abaair1.pdf

 

[FlyinGuy]

This is what gets me. "Free Hobby". Now let's take a look at the timeline here. After 9/11, SWA expanded at a rapid pace taking advantage of the plights AA/UAL/CAL/DAL/NWA/US/MEH/ATA all had. Employees were giddy with the rapid expansion that came at the expense of employees the airlines mentioned above.

This is one of the most ignorant statements I have ever read on FI (and that is saying a lot). Will you please explain the plights of CAL/DAL/NWA/US/MEH/ATA? If I recall AA and UAL were the ones that suffered significant damage after 9/11. Please tell us once again how you were effected any differently than SWA? All the airlines you listed were in trouble because of their style of management.

Your comment about rapid expansion shows that you are a socialist. SWA expanded their market share where they determined that they could make a profit. Please tell what poor old SWA should have done during the past 10 years? Sat back? Given money to other airlines? Frozen growth until you could get your finances in order? SWA did not take jobs from other airlines. They were taken by their own management!!!

Get a clue!!! If you don't want SWA to fly international out of Hobby just say so and quit making such idiotic comments.

 

[FlyinGuy]

Agreed. I think it is SWA's marketing campaign that gets under my skin more than the argument you are making. I worked for AirTran for 3 years. I wish nothing but the best for you and the AirTran guys. Never applied nor wanted to work for SWA but their pilots used to be a fun group. Their arrogance recently(behind computer keyboards I should add) has turned off many a good guy that used to enjoy opening up their js to a SWA pilot. I hope my company can compete going forward. The sad thing is that it is out of my hands.

Should have quoted PCL as I was responding to his post, not CanyonBlue guy who helps make my argument...

I love how guys say that the entire pilot group is arrogant because of a few on FI. FWIW, every pilot I know will gladly open up their js to any pilot of another airline.

The comment about it being out of your hands is the best comment that you have made. It is out of all our hands. We can only do our best at what we are tasked to do and the rest is up to someone else.

 

[Flopgut]

Flop, that's your definition of a fair fight. There are other opinions. What United has in IAH is a fortress hub. That is not fair fight. The city has a hand in developing airports and fortress hubs for airlines. If that's what they want, that's what they will get. See pages 9 and 10 of the link below. I think the Ual/Cal merger strengthens SWA's argument.

http://www.consumerfed.org/pdfs/abaair1.pdf

That's a cool link. Good info. I need to read it more. But, answer me this: In those pages 9 and 10, it speaks to what the hub and spoke landscape has resulted in post de-regulation. And then seems to suggest that something should be considered to mitigate what has come to be a fortress hub "problem". My question is, how is it not wrong to make a correction to mitigate the fortress hub "problem" by gifting a previoulsy non-existent competitive advantage to a discount competitor?(are we de-regulated or not?) Or maybe at this point we should just say Southwest? Because it seems clear they have been ordained as the single carrier that should benefit from de-regulation and be used to destroy the fortress hubs?

Additionally, it's certainly in poor form for any airline to first provide 2/3rds+ of the funding for the fortress hub, and then break it up as soon as the discounter [Southwest] feels they deserve it? I know this: CAL would have made do just fine with zero updates to IAH if we knew this was coming. Houston got a heck of front door to the world, and now they are set to shoot us in the back...

 

[humveedriver]

If we go down your path flop. It's regulation without federal government oversight. It's the largest carriers regulating their own airlines as they see fit with municipal approval.

 

[outerlimits]

If we go down your path flop. It's regulation without federal government oversight. It's the largest carriers regulating their own airlines as they see fit with municipal approval.

Could not have been said better. .

 

[SKC]

This message is hidden because Flopgut is on your ignore list.


Ah, much better. I should have figured it out on page 10 when my head started bleeding from banging it on the same wall over and over.

 

[dicko]

What you don't get: Customers will pay more to ride on us. We offer a better product.

Flop,

It would take five minutes to disprove your quote with fact.

United is a pariah to its customers. Management use the employees as a free vending machine and the company as an ATM. The reason people buy a seat on United has nothing to do with its product.

 

[redflyer65]

Flop,

You did read the article that SWAGuy posted right? You know the one that runs down how Houston has bent over backwards to help CAL with anything they needed (anytime it was needed), only to move to Chicago in the end.

 

[scoreboardII]

Point in case.....

Or case in point?

 

[dicko]

It would be fascinating to view the Houston Council members FF accounts and travel details ..... I wonder if any of them were treated to Premier 1K or Global Services ?

 

[Flopgut]

If we go down your path flop. It's regulation without federal government oversight. It's the largest carriers regulating their own airlines as they see fit with municipal approval.

It's no different going down your path.

You're asking the city for something, we're asking the city for the equal opposite. We might both be equally right or wrong. However, there are 12 gates open at IAH right now. So the link you gave me that said there is no access at fortress hubs for disscounters? Is wrong.

 

[Flopgut]

It would be fascinating to view the Houston Council members FF accounts and travel details ..... I wonder if any of them were treated to Premier 1K or Global Services ?

I'd like to know who got the $110,000 for the "study"?

 

[Flopgut]

Flop,

You did read the article that SWAGuy posted right? You know the one that runs down how Houston has bent over backwards to help CAL with anything they needed (anytime it was needed), only to move to Chicago in the end.

Read post 334. I have to agree it was a huge mistake. There would be no chance of SWA getting this if we had stayed in Houston. We have a terrible CEO... Yay for you!

 

[Double Shot]

Not to mention a dysfunctional pilot group as well.

 

[humveedriver]

It's no different going down your path.

You're asking the city for something, we're asking the city for the equal opposite. We might both be equally right or wrong. However, there are 12 gates open at IAH right now. So the link you gave me that said there is no access at fortress hubs for disscounters? Is wrong.

The gates are available in IAH and DFW for that matter. It's the pricing that is unfair. Essentially the United's of the world want the competition to lose money competing with them on like routes (the legacies intentiolly slash fares and operate at a loss. Once the competition is gone. Fares go up. Everyone here knows this trend). Knowing they can afford to do this due to their extensive networks. The article is from 1999. The points about monopolies and hubs still hold their water. But things have changed since then too. Continental and Northwest were blocked from merging. But since oil and the economy have been in the tank, things have changed. The DOJ is accepting of a consolidated industry with fewer mega carriers. They don't address address the impact on smaller carriers. I believe SWA, which carries the most passengers domestically, is the counter balance to the new age of mega carrier. As such, I think they should be allowed to offer international service out of Hobby.

 

[madjack]

If SWA wins the HOU int'l passenger wins (lower fares)...if UCAL wins??

 

[Flopgut]

The gates are available in IAH and DFW for that matter. It's the pricing that is unfair. Essentially the United's of the world want the competition to lose money competing with them on like routes (the legacies intentiolly slash fares and operate at a loss. Once the competition is gone. Fares go up. Everyone here knows this trend). Knowing they can afford to do this due to their extensive networks. The article is from 1999. The points about monopolies and hubs still hold their water. But things have changed since then too. Continental and Northwest were blocked from merging. But since oil and the economy have been in the tank, things have changed. The DOJ is accepting of a consolidated industry with fewer mega carriers. They don't address address the impact on smaller carriers. I believe SWA, which carries the most passengers domestically, is the counter balance to the new age of mega carrier. As such, I think they should be allowed to offer international service out of Hobby.

Ok, very good post, point well taken. But I vehemently disagree that Southwest be the only carrier that is the "counterbalance" to the mega carriers. Where is the balance in enabling one airline to be profitable and to grow year after year? Where is the balance in letting that profitable carrier take their pick of the very best routes from a terminal that is probably going to be built with taxpayer money? (as the Fortune or Forbes article describes. I do NOT beleive SWA will pay up) When mega carriers have to pay 10 times to a city, mostly their own money?

If having Hobby open to international flights is the balancing act that is required? Then I'd say ok, but don't give it to SWA. Not this time; not twice in a row. Have a lottery, an auction, or something like that. It's worth a lot more than 100 million to somebody else.

And btw: Does any of this thesis of yours resemble the free market? Is it not any worse than regulation was? I know you think it's great because you see dollar signs, and you've done a good job of making your point (and it actually looks like what is happening) but what about the employees of these mega carriers? We're not going to just languish in insolvency. You know eventually we're coming with our pitchforks. Maybe sooner than you think?

 

[scoreboardII]

Flop, your "gentleman's agreement" went out the door when mother UAL shutdown the offices of CAL in HOU.

 

[scoreboardII]

We're not going to just languish in insolvency. You know eventually we're coming with our pitchforks. Maybe sooner than you think?

SWA employee's have proven their metal enough times to take one for the team when needed. Bring it Flop, bring it. Last time I saw a UASL/CAL pilot take one was in a strike line. OH, wait, you guys just sent the letter to be released so you could strike.

 

[Flopgut]

If SWA wins the HOU int'l passenger wins (lower fares)...if UCAL wins??

They will not feel like they've won when you fail to create 10,000 jobs, and you only lower fares by the smallish amount of money you save them not paying IAH fees. A lot of Houstonians understand this. That's why the low fares argument is not a slam dunk. Your study said you would fly to Bogota for $133?! Most people know better!

 

[Flopgut]

SWA employee's have proven their metal enough times to take one for the team when needed. Bring it Flop.

You guys have proven nothing. You have not been tested and you are weak.

You said what about us wanting to strike? I didn't understand you. You want to be at Hobby so you don't have to honor our picket line? Yeah, I'm sure in that May 8th meeting GK will make sure that comes up. He can say to the council his lap dog pilots will never strike.

 

[scoreboardII]

That right there is the hypocrisy of ignorance.

 

[waveflyer]

Ok, very good post, point well taken. But I vehemently disagree that Southwest be the only carrier that is the "counterbalance" to the mega carriers. Where is the balance in enabling one airline to be profitable and to grow year after year? Where is the balance in letting that profitable carrier take their pick of the very best routes from a terminal that is probably going to be built with taxpayer money? (as the Fortune or Forbes article describes. I do NOT beleive SWA will pay up) When mega carriers have to pay 10 times to a city, mostly their own money?

If having Hobby open to international flights is the balancing act that is required? Then I'd say ok, but don't give it to SWA. Not this time; not twice in a row. Have a lottery, an auction, or something like that. It's worth a lot more than 100 million to somebody else.Is it?

And btw: Does any of this thesis of yours resemble the free market? Is it not any worse than regulation was? I know you think it's great because you see dollar signs, and you've done a good job of making your point (and it actually looks like what is happening) but what about the employees of these mega carriers? We're not going to just languish in insolvency. You know eventually we're coming with our pitchforks. Maybe sooner than you think?

what does that mean? Knock yourself out bro

I highlighted the parts I take exception to.
That's right, one of the most liberal, Obama supporters on FI is calling you out for being socialist and anti-capitalist.
Government has a role. Strategic decisions of private corporations? - absolutely not.

I've yet to see the Forbes article- the Fortune one was posted, and it was an opinion piece. In that where the author accuses SWA of brazenly asking the city for $100M (which is false), he cites how the city put up $333 million towards your shiny terminals in IAH.
How do you take city money over and over, then claim its unfair if the city simply "allows" us to operate out of hobby.

CAL's business decisions should not hogtie swa -

You are thick though-

 

[waveflyer]

You guys have proven nothing. You have not been tested and you are weak.

You said what about us wanting to strike? I didn't understand you. You want to be at Hobby so you don't have to honor our picket line? Yeah, I'm sure in that May 8th meeting GK will make sure that comes up. He can say to the council his lap dog pilots will never strike.

Wow. I didn't realize we were weak and untested. What about the rest of my swa brethren? Did you guys know this?

The lapdogs get paid a whole lot more, in a lot better working environment, so at least we have that. You keep "fighting" though Flop