SWA wants to fly from HOU to MEX and SouthAmerica

[Scoot 11]

LGA and DCA are slot controlled airports. HOU and IAH do not have any slot restrictions. Not a comparable situation at all.

BULL!
Very comparable... Southwest was crying about unfair competition. Competition is competition. It's rather comical that now that the playing field is leveled, and SW no longer has it's upper edge with fuel hedges, they're the ones crying the most.

 

[Double Shot]

Hey Flop,
are you saying continental will have to displace 1300 people to hobby to staff it? Man you guys run a tight ship. NOT!!

Ya you guys are sure productive

Ha ha ha ha!!!

 

[Flopgut]

Flop,

I'm trying to see your point as well, and to a point, I can. However, I think your fears (or your company's stated fears, anyway) are way overblown, and I suspect for dramatic effect. Supposing SWA's international HOU operations gets approved. How much harm do you truly think will occur to CAL/UAL? I don't mean the doom and gloom, "we're gonna' die" stuff that the company's lawyers have to put out in their argument briefs. I mean real harm. What say you?

Just my two centavos.

Bubba

Bubba: Thanks for a good, considerate response. Maybe that's how it will work out? I have a few doubts and a few disageements with you. But again, good post.

Thirty thousand foot viewpoint on this: CAL/UAL has got to be in a equal market, or maybe I should say be in equal standing, with the City of Houston. We can't stake our future on something and have the rug pulled out from under us. We can't accept being misled or hoodwinked on this. That airport we sunk so much money in includes facilities used my Emirates, Air France, Luftansa, BA, and all manner of worldwide operators. We didn't spend what we did, and provide Houston with a world class airport, so we can just be discarded.

And let me point out too, you guys have not walked a mile in our shoes. We have had the crap beat out of us, and you guys have had the exact opposite. So we're going to have a different response when we get attacked on all sides.

 

[texman]

I will say we have not walked a mile in your shoes, but our shoes are pretty worn and for us to give up now will only kill our airline. So we just lace up, and contiue to do what we (SWA) do best, keep having fun and rocking roll.

 

[Britpilot]

Idk. But if you are trying to insinuate that CAL exploited the city you won't get too far.

No, just saying CAL has made money at the airport and will continue to do so.

We had more downs than ups and still did a remarkable amount of things for the city. Why don't you pose/compare that with SWA? They've done nothing but make money. Have they done that much more for any city? Nope...

So what? CAL didn't do that out of kindness they did it to make money, period.

 

[Flopgut]

If we do not get a INTL terminal out of HOU, I know SAT will be more and glad to help us. Either way we will do INTl flying out of Texas. The only thing is we can not do it out of love field.

Hey, why are you abiding by the latest ruling on Love Field (no international)and going after Houston on Hobby like there is no similiar agreement? Just curious...

Hey Flop,
are you saying continental will have to displace 1300 people to hobby to staff it? Man you guys run a tight ship. NOT!!

Ya you guys are sure productive

Ha ha ha ha!!!

I don't know how many of us it might take? But I doubt we'd show up with the minimum.

Idk, Jeff pbly won't do it. He'll just use it against us on a contract. But 1300 is an interesting number that suggests he has a plan. The number 10000? As in 10000 jobs created by SWA flying out of Hobby, that suggests someone needs a drug test...

 

[Flopgut]

No, just saying CAL has made money at the airport and will continue to do so.

So what? CAL didn't do that out of kindness they did it to make money, period.

Not true. I would say that during the Bethune years we really felt like we had a partnership with the city. This city does not have much culture, but what it did, CAL was a part of. Another example is Hurricane and disaster recovery. CAL was always the last out and first in.

 

[PCL_128]

BULL!
Very comparable... Southwest was crying about unfair competition. Competition is competition. It's rather comical that now that the playing field is leveled, and SW no longer has it's upper edge with fuel hedges, they're the ones crying the most.

Slot controlled airports are, by definition, unfair competitively. Anytime you artificially restrict the market place with something like a limited number of slots, competition isn't fair. SWA had to purchase AirTran just to get slots in DCA and LGA. Otherwise, getting slots there would have been prohibitively expensive, and would have taken years to accumulate enough of them to be cost effective, just like it took AirTran years to acquire all of our slots. Other carriers that could offer a better price to consumers couldn't get slots, while the legacy carriers were trading them around with each other to maximize their profits.

By contrast, there are no restrictions in Houston. SWA isn't looking for some sort of artificial controls on HOU that will give them a competitive advantage. If UAL wants to come over to HOU and fly a bunch of international flights on 737s just like SWA, then they're free to do so. The problem is that UAL does want a competitive advantage. They want artificial restrictions that don't belong in a free market.

Again, if you want regulation, just say so. I'm in support of that. But I'm not in support of partial regulation to benefit your company while screwing mine over. Free market or total regulation. Pick one.

 

[Scoot 11]

Slot controlled airports are, by definition, unfair competitively. Anytime you artificially restrict the market place with something like a limited number of slots, competition isn't fair. SWA had to purchase AirTran just to get slots in DCA and LGA. Otherwise, getting slots there would have been prohibitively expensive, and would have taken years to accumulate enough of them to be cost effective, just like it took AirTran years to acquire all of our slots. Other carriers that could offer a better price to consumers couldn't get slots, while the legacy carriers were trading them around with each other to maximize their profits.

By contrast, there are no restrictions in Houston. SWA isn't looking for some sort of artificial controls on HOU that will give them a competitive advantage. If UAL wants to come over to HOU and fly a bunch of international flights on 737s just like SWA, then they're free to do so. The problem is that UAL does want a competitive advantage. They want artificial restrictions that don't belong in a free market.

Again, if you want regulation, just say so. I'm in support of that. But I'm not in support of partial regulation to benefit your company while screwing mine over. Free market or total regulation. Pick one.

For years YOUR company avoided places like the NY/DC market by going into places like ISP and BWI, because it didn't fit YOUR low cost model. Then YOUR model changed. MY company paid for those slots, so did US Airways. You had your chance to get into those markets when those slots became available. YOUR company chose not to.
Your company got UAL do dispose of several slots at EWR when they merged with CAL, then you company purchased Air Tran, getting the slots anyway. Nice end round move by YOUR CEO. I'm all for a free market too, as long as YOUR company doesn't cry every time you don't get your way.
We're just going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[Furloughed80]

For years YOUR company avoided places like the NY/DC market by going into places like ISP and BWI, because it didn't fit YOUR low cost model. Then YOUR model changed. MY company paid for those slots, so did US Airways. You had your chance to get into those markets when those slots became available. YOUR company chose not to.
Your company got UAL do dispose of several slots at EWR when they merged with CAL, then you company purchased Air Tran, getting the slots anyway. Nice end round move by YOUR CEO. I'm all for a free market too, as long as YOUR company doesn't cry every time you don't get your way.

Southwest does not own any slots in EWR; they are leasing 10 from UAL. CAL purchased all of Air Tran's slots before they merged with Southwest.

 

[humveedriver]

So much fun to pretend like we know what's up... When at the end o the day we are all just sitting at the kids table listening to the adults talk at the big table.

 

[PCL_128]

MY company paid for those slots, so did US Airways.

That's a common misconception, but no, they actually did not. The vast majority of slots are held by legacy airlines who have held them for decades. They were awarded to those legacy carriers back when there were plenty of slots to go around to all of the legacy carriers who wanted them at the time. They didn't pay for them, they were given to them by the FAA. As traffic grew, and the slots ran out, new entrant carriers couldn't get access, because new slots weren't offered (at least not many). The only way to get slots was to pay to lease those slots from a legacy carrier that was offering them, or sit around waiting for the FAA to open one or two new slots, and try in vain to make money off of a handful of slots while everyone else you're competing against has a large number of slots and is able to offer frequency and a variety of destinations.

A better system in what is supposed to be a free market would be to have expiration dates on the slots, rather than the current system that grandfathers them for all eternity. At the expiration period, you could have either a lottery or a bidding system where carriers could compete based on price for the open slots. Simply allowing the legacy carriers to hold on to slots forever and rape the other carriers by offering ridiculous lease rates is not a free market system.

 

[Flopgut]

If anybody needs an answer to something on this issue, here it is:

http://dig.abclocal.go.com/ktrk/SWA-UACorrespondence.pdf

http://dig.abclocal.go.com/ktrk/EconomicImpact.pdf

The 102 pg document is heavily slanted to SWA. I guess the Council is awaiting the United document. This will be decided next month.

 

[outerlimits]

Quote:
Scoot 11
MY company paid for those slots, so did US Airways.

Then how come I get stuck flying them?

 

[PCL_128]

If anybody needs an answer to something on this issue, here it is:

http://dig.abclocal.go.com/ktrk/SWA-UACorrespondence.pdf

http://dig.abclocal.go.com/ktrk/EconomicImpact.pdf

The 102 pg document is heavily slanted to SWA. I guess the Council is awaiting the United document. This will be decided next month.

Flop, these documents prove exactly what I've been saying all along: there is absolutely no statute, policy, or agreement that makes IAH the sole international airport in Houston. The airport authority specifically requested that UAL provide proof of such a document, and UAL ignored the request, and just repeated the same talking points in letter after letter.

UAL has no ground to stand on here.

 

[humveedriver]

If anybody needs an answer to something on this issue, here it is:

http://dig.abclocal.go.com/ktrk/SWA-UACorrespondence.pdf

http://dig.abclocal.go.com/ktrk/EconomicImpact.pdf

The 102 pg document is heavily slanted to SWA. I guess the Council is awaiting the United document. This will be decided next month.

Thanks for the link. That was a good read. I think I understand your frustration. I don't think your frustrated because SWA wants to use 5 gates in Hobby to fly about 25 daily flights south of the border. Your main concern is how your employer will try to punish the city of Houston for not doing what they ask of them. I think someone mentioned earlier ransoming employees. The letters talk about how United would have to cease expansion in Terminal B and displace 1300 employees. Really? Why? Why, wouldn't they continue to improve there already fantastic product and market? Do they think their gold/platinum elite members are going to flock to Hobby? I know they don't think that. It's a bunch of posturing and it's paper thin. United; we have to shrink IAH because SWA is going to siphon off all of our L. America traffic. These statements by the real estate experts at the airline. Just like Midway and Love, Hobby is a postage stamp airport, and if you need an alternate it's going to hurt. But in the end Flop, your execs are going to make you and or your coworkers pay for HAS's insolence. And for that I am sorry.

 

[Flopgut]

Flop, these documents prove exactly what I've been saying all along: there is absolutely no statute, policy, or agreement that makes IAH the sole international airport in Houston. The airport authority specifically requested that UAL provide proof of such a document, and UAL ignored the request, and just repeated the same talking points in letter after letter.

UAL has no ground to stand on here.

Well, evidently you can't read. Because it specifically says that a 40 year old City of Houston aviation policy has to be changed to allow SWA to do this. And this is the document that favors SWA....

 

[PCL_128]

No, I saw where UAL claimed that, but they they didn't refer to any actual document. If they did, can you point out the page number? Maybe I missed it.

 

[SKC]

Hey, why are you abiding by the latest ruling on Love Field (no international)and going after Houston on Hobby like there is no similiar agreement? Just curious...

Well, because there isn't anything resembling the WA at HOU.

 

[humveedriver]

Well, evidently you can't read. Because it specifically says that a 40 year old City of Houston aviation policy has to be changed to allow SWA to do this. And this is the document that favors SWA....

SWA requested a 3-5 gate FIS (Federal Inspection Station). I think the "policy" has simply been a lack of services to accomadate int'l ops at Hobby. I don't believe their is an actual document that states thou shall not conduct 121 internationally out of HOU. It just hasn't come up until now.