SWA wants to fly from HOU to MEX and SouthAmerica

[waveflyer]

No flop-
The argument is about United asking to create a restriction on international flying out of hobby, not in overturning an existing regulation against it.
Please refute and source if you can-

 

[Saluki Dawg]

Reading all the replies on the Houston Chronicle blog you would think that United threatened to kill every Houston based Employee's first born child if they didn't post a negative comment about what a job killing machine Southwest would be if allowed to fly International from Hobby. I've never seen so many misinformed posts (that are being stated as facts BTW) in my life. Half the posts on that blog made Flopgut look reasonable by comparison.

 

[fam62c]

SW will do this either way if they want to. If it doesn't work in Houston there will be another southern city that will bend over backwards to get SW international service, maybe SAT or AUS. It's coming no matter what and if it's cheaper SW will still pull people from Houston and force UCAL to lower fares. Competition is a fact of life in this business, there's nowhere to hide anymore. UCAL shouldn't be using the jobs of it's employees as a pawn in this game.

 

[Scoot 11]

No flop-
The argument is about United asking to create a restriction on international flying out of hobby, not in overturning an existing regulation against it.
Please refute and source if you can-

So wave:
What's the bfd? United is doing nothing different than you did during the DL/US Airways slot swap at LGA/DCA. Why is it that competition is good if its only in your favor?

 

[PCL_128]

So wave:
What's the bfd? United is doing nothing different than you did during the DL/US Airways slot swap at LGA/DCA. Why is it that competition is good if its only in your favor?

LGA and DCA are slot controlled airports. HOU and IAH do not have any slot restrictions. Not a comparable situation at all.

 

[PCL_128]

Flop, I'm trying to see your side of this. I really am. But I'm just not finding any logic to your argument. In fact, I can't even figure out what your argument is. What exactly is the logical basis for your argument? Not emotion, just logic and facts. Right now, I'm not seeing any.

I've looked high and low for any indication that there is some sort of statute that prohibits international operations our of HOU, and I can't find any. And if there is one, there shouldn't be. If you want to argue for re-regulation of the airline industry, then I'll be right there with you. But this isn't a regulated industry right now, and I certainly haven't seen Smisek or UAL spending a bunch of lobbying dollars on fighting for re-regulation. So, as long as this industry is de-regulated, you can't expect artificial limits on the market place that you're arguing for here. Either regulate it, or allow the market to work. You can't have it both ways.

 

[outerlimits]

So wave:
What's the bfd? United is doing nothing different than you did during the DL/US Airways slot swap at LGA/DCA. Why is it that competition is good if its only in your favor?

Are you even a pilot ?

LGA and DCA have a limited amount of slots, where as other airports like HOU do not and anyone can fly out of.

Time for you to get ready for school, after you go cry to the moderators as you always do.

 

[Flopgut]

No flop-
The argument is about United asking to create a restriction on international flying out of hobby, not in overturning an existing regulation against it.
Please refute and source if you can-

It's all over www.chron.com you just have to read it. Idk if it's approval for the flights, or approval to build the building, or if there is a written deal between IAH airlines and the city? IDK. But there is very clearly a vote that has to take place by the city council to approve it. Now, I'm guessing that's not going to be satisfactory for you? So before I go try and access some secret piece of data that I really can't get to, I'd like to point out that GK wants this to remain a question in your mind. He has to try and make UAL/CAL the villian in your mind by keeping things unclear.

Reading all the replies on the Houston Chronicle blog you would think that United threatened to kill every Houston based Employee's first born child if they didn't post a negative comment about what a job killing machine Southwest would be if allowed to fly International from Hobby. I've never seen so many misinformed posts (that are being stated as facts BTW) in my life. Half the posts on that blog made Flopgut look reasonable by comparison.

If you and your fellow employees had been through what we have been through in the last 10+ years, you would understand. You've had nothing but milk and honey and blue skies.

Question: Where is SWA coming up with the 10,000 jobs created number?! That sounds like a very convenient, very large number? It's an obvious exaggeration. Jeff says we displace 1300 because you open up Hobby, he means it. That's what he does. That blood will be on SWA's and the city of Houston's hands.

Flop, I'm trying to see your side of this. I really am. But I'm just not finding any logic to your argument. In fact, I can't even figure out what your argument is. What exactly is the logical basis for your argument? Not emotion, just logic and facts. Right now, I'm not seeing any.

I've looked high and low for any indication that there is some sort of statute that prohibits international operations our of HOU, and I can't find any. And if there is one, there shouldn't be. If you want to argue for re-regulation of the airline industry, then I'll be right there with you. But this isn't a regulated industry right now, and I certainly haven't seen Smisek or UAL spending a bunch of lobbying dollars on fighting for re-regulation. So, as long as this industry is de-regulated, you can't expect artificial limits on the market place that you're arguing for here. Either regulate it, or allow the market to work. You can't have it both ways.

I have two problems with this: My airline spent 1.5 billion on an airport based on a real agreement made in good faith. SWA wants to spend just 100mil and glean the cream off what we built by challenging the City of Houston to betray the IAH agreement. We're not going to get a refund on that 1.5 billion. It's been built. That disparity is the only thing that is going to allow SWA to be competitive on Houston airfares. UAL has SWA beat on straight up fares right now.

Secondly, and try to stay wih me guys, here is the next thing that is going to happen, IMHO: Drama is key to what GK & SWA want to do. UAL/CAL employees have to be the villians, SWA has to be the underdog. GK has to create this illusion because ultimately SWA does not want to just build this and start these flights. They want it to appear that they just barely got the deal done and they want it to include something like the WA. SWA does not want Hobby to be somewhere that other airlines can come into unrestricted. He wants to be able to limit who and how many competitors there will be by accepting a deal with the city that meets his needs for an international foothold, but makes it less/not acceptable to other airlines. SWA will get crushed in a straight up, fair fight on a level playing field trying to launch these international flights.

That's the SWA way. That's how you got off the ground in the first place, that's how you will start international flights.

You guys need to go to www.chron.com and read what is going on. It is abundantly clear that there is a vote that has to take place by the Houston City Council. It is complete BS and frankly a sad state of affairs in Houston for former Continental employees. We fought off SWA in a level playing field. We built a great world class airport where there are not a lot of delays and plenty of room for competition. We've still got to raise the mortgage on that. SWA will demonize the CAL/UAL employees and wage war on us from the comfort of an airport we will end up not being allowed to use ourselves. It's going to end up SWA's protected enclave, just like Love Field was. That is my thesis on where this is going.

 

[Britpilot]

That's an agreement they made with CAL that allowed us to feel confident we could spend billions (yep, with a B) on the airport.

Just wondering how many Billions (with a B) CAL has made out of IAH?

 

[Flopgut]

Just wondering how many Billions (with a B) CAL has made out of IAH?

Idk. But if you are trying to insinuate that CAL exploited the city you won't get too far. We had more downs than ups and still did a remarkable amount of things for the city. Why don't you pose/compare that with SWA? They've done nothing but make money. Have they done that much more for any city? Nope...

Please check out the blogs. It's clear that SWA could not get this done if we were still Continental and not merged with United. There is still a great deal of positive sentiment toward CAL in Houston. And we earned it. The poll is still in favor of not opening Hobby to SWA international flights, despite certain united IP addresses not being allowed to vote, and the fact that the writer Steffy is clearly biased to SWA.

 

[Double Shot]

Flop,

Quit crying

 

[outerlimits]

The poll is still in favor of not opening Hobby to SWA international flights, despite certain united IP addresses not being allowed to vote, and the fact that the writer Steffy is clearly biased to SWA.

Flop help me to understand this poll.

There is poll other there that no one, except UAL/CAL employees know about . This poll is to help make a decision?

Since when does a politician decide an issue on some secret poll?

PS no mind that you can vote as much as you want,as long as you clear your cookies on your computer,before each vote.

SO far about 7000 votes. I am guess Houston has a higher population that 7000 . ( I bet out of the 7000 votes it was actually only less than 100 people voting.)

 

[texman]

Flop, ok I get it. I see what you are saying In relation to all the money that your company has spent. Is the HOU airport in the city of Houston? Is IAH in the city of Houston? I think they are both in Harris county right? This is your even playing field. Exactly what agreement in good faith did the city of Houston have with ua/ca????? Was it a agrement to allow only CAL to do international out of iah and never allow Swa out of hobby? How would are fairs differ if they are so much higher rigth now? It sounds like you have a strong hold on that one. So why not let us bleed out of HOU doing international. HOU is our launching point. IAH is yours. How about we let you guys come in and play on our field.

Personally I think cal's argument is weak! This is a capitalist country or what's left of it! I think PCL is right. Regulate the whole industry, then we would not have this problem.

All in all I hope SWA will do international out of HOU because that's where our customer feed is out of and conintue to do so with great success.

 

[Flopgut]

Flop,

Quit crying

Here it comes. This is how you know when you're making a valid counterpoint in a SWA related debate. You hear "quit crying" or "get a beer"....

 

[outerlimits]

Here it comes. This is how you know when you're making a valid counterpoint in a SWA related debate. You hear "quit crying" or "get a beer"....

Dont knock it till you try it

PS Flop i give you alot of credit standing up for what you believe in and taking on everyone on FI.. Especially if your a CAL pilot, seeing as how the UAL pilots view you guys as second rate, and not deserving the profit sharing they got. Now that you guys (CAL) got the money in a different way, the UAL pilots have a grievance against it .

 

[Flopgut]

Flop help me to understand this poll.

There is poll other there that no one, except UAL/CAL employees know about . This poll is to help make a decision?

Since when does a politician decide an issue on some secret poll?

PS no mind that you can vote as much as you want,as long as you clear your cookies on your computer,before each vote.

SO far about 7000 votes. I am guess Houston has a higher population that 7000 . ( I bet out of the 7000 votes it was actually only less than 100 people voting.)

Well, look. This is the level this fight is taking place at. That's why Gordon Bethune is in front of the city and being interviewed by the Chonicle. This poll, these blogs and these articles and editorials will have a bearing on what the city council does.

I'm watching what Loren Steffy (Chronicle writer) is putting out hourly and writing him back about as much as I'm writing on here. I've voted (only once) and I know my co-workers are. We are tuned into this and very appreciative Bethune is helping us. That's what is going to be destroyed by SWA here. The good work that Bethune did.

*edit* Yeah, you're right about the beer!! Not a bad idea. A little early in the day yet. Or is it?

 

[Flopgut]

Flop, ok I get it. I see what you are saying In relation to all the money that your company has spent. Is the HOU airport in the city of Houston? Is IAH in the city of Houston? I think they are both in Harris county right? This is your even playing field. Exactly what agreement in good faith did the city of Houston have with ua/ca????? Was it a agrement to allow only CAL to do international out of iah and never allow Swa out of hobby? How would are fairs differ if they are so much higher rigth now? It sounds like you have a strong hold on that one. So why not let us bleed out of HOU doing international. HOU is our launching point. IAH is yours. How about we let you guys come in and play on our field.

Personally I think cal's argument is weak! This is a capitalist country or what's left of it! I think PCL is right. Regulate the whole industry, then we would not have this problem.

All in all I hope SWA will do international out of HOU because that's where our customer feed is out of and conintue to do so with great success.

I appreciate that you're trying to see my point. I think the agreement that exists is that all international flying in Houston take place out of IAH. The city council has to approve Hobby being re-instated as an international airport.

I think the chance that CAL/UAL prevails is about 1 in 3. If we don't, I think/hope we will go to Hobby to offer competing flights. (notice Smisek says 1300 workers will be "displaced"? I think that is about the number we would have to use to fly out of Hobby. I think he's signalling to GK that we'll be coming) Here is the call I'm making, and I know it might sound crazy: I don't think the city is going to let us go to Hobby. The deal GK ultimately wants is no/little competition. He wants CAL/UAL to go the way of Braniff, so he's cleverly playing things out just as was done at Love Field...

 

[texman]

I appreciate that you're trying to see my point. I think the agreement that exists is that all international flying in Houston take place out of IAH. The city council has to approve Hobby being re-instated as an international airport.

I think the chance that CAL/UAL prevails is about 1 in 3. If we don't, I think/hope we will go to Hobby to offer competing flights. (notice Smisek says 1300 workers will be "displaced"? I think that is about the number we would have to use to fly out of Hobby. I think he's signalling to GK that we'll be coming) Here is the call I'm making, and I know it might sound crazy: I don't think the city is going to let us go to Hobby. The deal GK ultimately wants is no/little competition. He wants CAL/UAL to go the way of Braniff, so he's cleverly playing things out just as was done at Love Field...

Love field is a battle that SWA is still dealing with till 2014. SWA didn't put them selfs in that situation. Our company has been fighting for 40 plus years and will continue to do so. The only way that (IMHO) Ua is going to beat SWA in HOU is if you start to be more of a productive group.

What I am wondering is why are we building a 500,000 sqft new building at the hdqs. It must be for future growth?

 

[texman]

If we do not get a INTL terminal out of HOU, I know SAT will be more and glad to help us. Either way we will do INTl flying out of Texas. The only thing is we can not do it out of love field.

 

[SWA Bubba]

I appreciate that you're trying to see my point. I think the agreement that exists is that all international flying in Houston take place out of IAH. The city council has to approve Hobby being re-instated as an international airport.

I think the chance that CAL/UAL prevails is about 1 in 3. If we don't, I think/hope we will go to Hobby to offer competing flights. (notice Smisek says 1300 workers will be "displaced"? I think that is about the number we would have to use to fly out of Hobby. I think he's signalling to GK that we'll be coming) Here is the call I'm making, and I know it might sound crazy: I don't think the city is going to let us go to Hobby. The deal GK ultimately wants is no/little competition. He wants CAL/UAL to go the way of Braniff, so he's cleverly playing things out just as was done at Love Field...

Flop,

I'm trying to see your point as well, and to a point, I can. However, I think your fears (or your company's stated fears, anyway) are way overblown, and I suspect for dramatic effect. Supposing SWA's international HOU operations gets approved. How much harm do you truly think will occur to CAL/UAL? I don't mean the doom and gloom, "we're gonna' die" stuff that the company's lawyers have to put out in their argument briefs. I mean real harm. What say you?

My personal suspicion is none. None, other than matching fares on the few competing, near-international that can be done from HOU with our type of aircraft. And I believe that lowering fares, even slightly, will spur more people to fly to those destinations, which will ultimately result in more passengers and profit for ALL of the airlines. The reason I say this, is because this has been what's always happened in these situations before.

As other posters have mentioned, you fly huge widebodies from IAH all over the world (remember, "Intercontinental" not just "international"), whereas we can only fly so many people in 20-30 international 737 departures per day (we only have something like 150 total HOU departures per day). Trust me, that's not going to destroy any other airline or Houston Intercontinental.

As far as your "level playing field" argument, all I have to say is that's a pretty subjective term in an industry as complicated as ours. You think "level" means we should fly out of IAH. That means split our operation (and that would be a significant operational split, in relative terms comparing our total Houston size to yours), and run operations on YOUR home turf. At YOUR airport, run the way your airline runs (hub and spoke, more time loading huge aircraft, significantly more ground time). Well, that doesn't work for us, with our business model and our size aircraft.

On the other hand, OUR idea of "level," is that you're welcome to run international operations at HOU with us. You'd only be able to use smaller planes to nearer destinations (limited by HOU's runways) like we plan on doing, however. You want to do that? You can do that as well as your large, intercontinental operations out of the only Houston airport capable of supporting that, your home, IAH. Or not. Your choice. To me, "level" and "fair competition" means, you run your business your way, and to your established model, and we run ours our way, and to our model. You don't force us to do things your way, and we don't force you to do things our way. Then we see whose product the consumer picks. It seems to me that experience shows that there's plenty of consumers to go around for each of our models.

Despite your insinuation, Southwest has NEVER worked to stop any airline from using any airport that we use, even "our" Love Field. The original agreement between the legacies and DFW did at first (not us), but now anyone can fly out of Love. Other airlines have come and gone (and some are still here), but that is up to them, and their business plans. And if you're truly worried about monopolies, consider this: American Airlines flies about 90% of the airtraffic into and out of the Dallas metroplex, and that's the DFW and Love combined. That kind of gives your concerns about Southwest's DAL "monopoly" some new perspective, doesn't it? I suspect you'd come up with some similar "monopoly" numbers in Houston, combining IAH and HOU operations.

Our proposal is to spend OUR money to build this international terminal, which will bring more money (and travel opportunity) to the city. That's why they seem to like it. I don't think it won't hurt UAL/CAL at all, other than perhaps to put initial price pressure on the small number of competing routes. And then, increased passenger numbers will be pay off for all. It is, in NO way, shape or form, an attempt by GK to "kill" CAL/UAL and then takeover all of Houston, like you insinuate, and actually claim we did in Dallas (I suppose somebody forgot to tell AA that we killed them years ago; there's still a buttload of those silver airplanes in Dallas!). Can't happen.

In reality, I think you have nothing to worry about. I'm not going to tell you to "stop crying" or "have a beer," but *I* believe that what you're arguing on this thread is the same overblown histrionics that lawyers are paid to argue. You know what I mean? I believe that in a few years, people are going to wonder what the big fuss was even about. More people will get to travel south, and both airlines will be fine.

Just my two centavos.

Bubba