SWA to speed up Airtran integration.....article

[Jim]

I did, and you are correct on who they were. The point that I was making wasn't whether or not you were on the flight, it was more how a conversation may have been misinterpreted. There is no letter asking for pay cuts or concessions, they were either being dramatic about the state of SWA, or they are clueless on what is going on around here.

No misinterpretation. One basically said "they are going to come after our pay and ask for cuts, the writing is on the wall" and the other two agreed. I then said "I thought you guys had a good relationship with your management to whicxh the answer was "we did, but not any more".

Maybe they are clueless but they all three agreed with each other.

 

[Jim]

I know the letter. Always did. It is a letter that sent out to EVERY EMPLOYEE. But the letter of course didn't say anything about concessions. I was not there and a really silly suggestion to call up people I have likely never seen a day in my life to see what they were talking about because some screw ball on FI said you guys were talking about something. Please.

You can make comments about any airline you want. But go back and read your other post. You concluded by the phantom content of this letter and a conversation you were only half interested in that and I quote you "Maybe it's not going to be such a big pay raise for the AT guys...."

So thats the level of crap you choose to share. Next time when you have some truthful facts, let us know. If you are capable.

I was totally engaged in the conversation and all three SWA pilots were in agreement the letter was a precursor of management asking for pay cuts and concessions. They were not happy with what they perceived as the state of your airline or management.

You and many other SWA guys on this board always defend the treatment of the AT pilots by saying how much more money they are going to make. My statement about AT pilot pay raises was in reference to that. I think the AT guys had a big $hit sandwich shoved down their mouths by your management when they didn't honor the agreement they signed for the SLI process. I don't blame SWAPA for the mess because their job was to get as much for their members as possible. Your management showed a bias and I think that will cause hard feelings for years to come with many of the AT guys. When you take away some of the expected pay raise, it makes the $hit sandwich that much harder to swallow.

I'll admit SWA pays top dollar and the vast majority of the pilots are extremely happy working there. But it's not always about the money and you guys just don't get the many AT pilots seem to put their QOL over money. It takes a certain mind set (Warrior Spirit?) to be a SWA pilot and many of us either don't have it or don't want it. THe AT pilots had this thrust upon them with no choice. (Leaving for another airline because they don't like the SWA culture is not really a valid choice and you know it.)

You can not tolerate anyone that does not think SWA is the only place they would want to work. I once made a post that I turned down a SWA interview after getting recalled to Hawaiian from furlough because Hawaiian was financially secure, because I enjoyed working here and because it was always my first choice of airline. The same group of SWA pilots (and I am pretty sure you were one leading the charge) immediately claimed I was lying because I said I was surprised they called as I had stopped updating my online app a good while before. You guys couldn't believe someone would possibly turn down an opportunity to fly for SWA. Posting that I did was blasphemy!

Things aren't all roses at SWA and you don't have to be a SWA pilot to see or understand this. The AT pilots have very valid gripes. They all know it is done deal and bitching about them doesn't change the facts, but your constant denial of the validity of their gripes with the arguement that more money makes everything better doesn't change anything for them either.

You need to take your blinders off and see the big picture. It might surprise you.

 

[maxblast72]

You need to take your blinders off and see the big picture. It might surprise you.

The big picture is SWA made a $350 million net profit in 2011, will announce next week a $400 million net profit for 2012, and Wall Street is predicting a $700 million net profit for 2013. Why would SWAPA agree to concessions when the company is not financially stressed at all? I don't consider preventing cartels from forming and game playing as concessions.

 

[SWAdude]

I was totally engaged in the conversation and all three SWA pilots were in agreement the letter was a precursor of management asking for pay cuts and concessions. They were not happy with what they perceived as the state of your airline or management.

You and many other SWA guys on this board always defend the treatment of the AT pilots by saying how much more money they are going to make. My statement about AT pilot pay raises was in reference to that. I think the AT guys had a big $hit sandwich shoved down their mouths by your management when they didn't honor the agreement they signed for the SLI process. I don't blame SWAPA for the mess because their job was to get as much for their members as possible. Your management showed a bias and I think that will cause hard feelings for years to come with many of the AT guys. When you take away some of the expected pay raise, it makes the $hit sandwich that much harder to swallow.

I'll admit SWA pays top dollar and the vast majority of the pilots are extremely happy working there. But it's not always about the money and you guys just don't get the many AT pilots seem to put their QOL over money. It takes a certain mind set (Warrior Spirit?) to be a SWA pilot and many of us either don't have it or don't want it. THe AT pilots had this thrust upon them with no choice. (Leaving for another airline because they don't like the SWA culture is not really a valid choice and you know it.)

You can not tolerate anyone that does not think SWA is the only place they would want to work. I once made a post that I turned down a SWA interview after getting recalled to Hawaiian from furlough because Hawaiian was financially secure, because I enjoyed working here and because it was always my first choice of airline. The same group of SWA pilots (and I am pretty sure you were one leading the charge) immediately claimed I was lying because I said I was surprised they called as I had stopped updating my online app a good while before. You guys couldn't believe someone would possibly turn down an opportunity to fly for SWA. Posting that I did was blasphemy!

Things aren't all roses at SWA and you don't have to be a SWA pilot to see or understand this. The AT pilots have very valid gripes. They all know it is done deal and bitching about them doesn't change the facts, but your constant denial of the validity of their gripes with the arguement that more money makes everything better doesn't change anything for them either.

You need to take your blinders off and see the big picture. It might surprise you.

This post sucked much time out of your life for something you have no dog in this fight. Why the need to prove yourself so much?

I have never said or thought that SWA was the best airline for everyone. So your "and I am pretty sure you were one leading the charge" couldn't be further from the truth. I have no doubt that a conversation took place and, yes, maybe you were in a trio of individuals that love to be in a negative place in life. We have those. You have those. All airlines have these doom and gloom people. But for you to pass that on as 100% fact, is just being a blinded jerk. I would not feel surprised that you absolutely LOVED hearing of a potential that we were going to potentially have pay cuts and concessions. Yet that very possibility could affect your future as well. Your selfishness is just blinded by these industry facts. If we concede, then everyone elses contracts became that much weaker.

Your intelligence couldn't throw up a red flag and ask these jack wagons if this letter actually said that the pilots can expect pay cuts and concessions? Didn't that sound odd to you? Well obviously the answer is no.

 

[Dash Power]

I think the AT guys had a big $hit sandwich shoved down their mouths by your management when they didn't honor the agreement they signed for the SLI process.

Oh please. Do tell.

How did our management not honor the process agreement?

 

[FlyinGuy]

What was the pass rate (pre-acquisition) on upgrade for the AT fo?

 

[labatt]

What was the pass rate (pre-acquisition) on upgrade for the AT fo?

Recent era? Let's say 2008 and beyond. I'd have to guess mid 90% pass rate. Total WAG.

 

[SWA Bubba]

I was totally engaged in the conversation and all three SWA pilots were in agreement the letter was a precursor of management asking for pay cuts and concessions. They were not happy with what they perceived as the state of your airline or management.

...

You need to take your blinders off and see the big picture. It might surprise you.

They're not going to. Management is ALWAYS harping about saving money and doiing more. Etc., etc. That's been the way for as long as I've been here (long before the Airtran purchase). You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that a company making large profits, historically and continually today, will not get any concessions or givebacks from its unions. You DO realize that, right Jim?

To be blunt, NO ONE from management has said the first word about concessions. NO ONE in management has said the first work about furloughs. NO ONE. Not in a letter, not in a public statement, nowhere. Is that clear enough for you Jim? They're harping on attendance (although this is a bigger issue for other work groups, not the pilots specifically), and ways to be more efficient. That's their job.

Are some Southwest pilots pissed off? Sure. Mainly about the Airtran acquisition and the lack of organic growth. Are some pessimistic? Of course. But they see what they want to see because of that. Did Southwest pilots tell you what you said in your post? Maybe--I wasn't there, and I'm not gonna' call you a liar. However, if they did, and you didn't misconstrue what they said, then they fall into the category I mentioned: pissed-off and/or pessimistic. Believe it or not, Southwest has its share of those, just like any other airline. Even in the best of times those folks are always like that.

Jim, you should know better than to forward crap like that. Don't you think that if such a letter had been put out, it would have thrown up on this board inside of two minutes? Now that General Lee has gone legit (and I commend him for trying his hardest, even in the face of provocation), don't be the new "that guy." You know which guy I'm talking about--the guy who gloats and takes every opportunity to predict the upcoming demise of Southwest.

Bubba

 

[FlyinGuy]

Not pass as in pass/fail, pass as in I want to be an f/o because the money is not important type of pass.

 

[humveedriver]

Not pass as in pass/fail, pass as in I want to be an f/o because the money is not important type of pass.

Virtually non existent when we had one base and one airplane type. As we added bases and a second aircraft type you began to see FO's holding out for 737. Because we waited so long to open other bases than ATL, there was no shortage of people wanting to be junior Capts in mke and mco. I don't have a number or percentage. Not even a wag.

 

[dicko]

Not pass as in pass/fail, pass as in I want to be an f/o because the money is not important type of pass.

I see where you're going with the question. The answer is - very few. But some did wait for various reasons. However, since the company was growing reasonably quickly, the time spent after upgrade with a lower quality of life was minimal. Especially if one lived in or near a base. The transition to a line holder was relatively quick. As you know, the music stopped and nobody moved. The suck began.

In a more slowly growing company with decent FO wages. I think more would have delayed.

 

[madjack]

You guys are airline pilots right? You really thought your QOL was immune from Acquisitions, upgrades, downgrades, economy etc....?

Is DAL hiring?

At least the trannies have a job with a company that has never furloughed (IMHO furlough has a much greater impact on QOL than schedule/commute). You guys are unbelievable, you are bringing 1600 pilots and 50-60 airframes to the deal and you complain about how having a job at SWA has affected your QOL. NEWSFLASH: Your CEO decided to sell your company to SWA...he's the one that f'ed your QOL...

 

[humveedriver]

You guys are airline pilots right? You really thought your QOL was immune from Acquisitions, upgrades, downgrades, economy etc....?

Is DAL hiring?

At least the trannies have a job with a company that has never furloughed (IMHO furlough has a much greater impact on QOL than schedule/commute). You guys are unbelievable, you are bringing 1600 pilots and 50-60 airframes to the deal and you complain about how having a job at SWA has affected your QOL. NEWSFLASH: Your CEO decided to sell your company to SWA...he's the one that f'ed your QOL...

I live/commute from a SWA domicile. My QOL will increase when I transition. Ask all 1700 AT pilots how this deal affects them and you will get 1700 different answers. That's what led to a lot of the problems you see just on the AT union side.

 

[Jim]

This post sucked much time out of your life for something you have no dog in this fight. Why the need to prove yourself so much?

I have never said or thought that SWA was the best airline for everyone. So your "and I am pretty sure you were one leading the charge" couldn't be further from the truth. I have no doubt that a conversation took place and, yes, maybe you were in a trio of individuals that love to be in a negative place in life. We have those. You have those. All airlines have these doom and gloom people. But for you to pass that on as 100% fact, is just being a blinded jerk. I would not feel surprised that you absolutely LOVED hearing of a potential that we were going to potentially have pay cuts and concessions. Yet that very possibility could affect your future as well. Your selfishness is just blinded by these industry facts. If we concede, then everyone elses contracts became that much weaker.

Your intelligence couldn't throw up a red flag and ask these jack wagons if this letter actually said that the pilots can expect pay cuts and concessions? Didn't that sound odd to you? Well obviously the answer is no.

I do not love hearing about anyone taking pay cuts or concessions. I understand the whole pattern bargaining concept and that my pay is somewhat tied to what the other majors are paying.

I may not have a dog in this particular fight. I am employed by a small airline that has a good potential of being bought by a larger one during my career, so do I have a dog in the overall war. I think the AT pilots got a $hitty deal. I heard something relevant to the issue from some SWA pilots so I posted it.

Never did I say it was 100% fact. I said I heard from some SWA pilots about being asked for future pay cuts/concessions and said "maybe" about AT pilots pay not increasing as much. You are reading into what I said.

BTW this is a discussion board. I participating in the discussion. You want a private discussion, stay on whatever board SWAPA or SWA has.

I'm not trying to prove anything to you. I posted what I heard and you jumped to the attack and called me a liar. And why would my "intelligence" make me wonder if these "jack wagons" were misrepresenting the letter? I didn't get it and they all seemed to be in agreement as to the contents. Further, there has been talk on this site of the adversarial relationship between SWAPA and management and of management going after your contract. I've had SWA jumpseaters going to/from Hawaii that have said they think the "good times" are over and SWAPA is in for a fight when the next contract negotiations start.

Bottomline is that I wish SWA, SWAPA and all the SWA/AT pilots the best. I just personally believe that the AT pilots got hosed and the kool aid is getting watered down.

 

[Jim]

Oh please. Do tell.

How did our management not honor the process agreement?

They signed an agreement stating if a single list could not be agreed upon, than it would go to arbitration. Then they told the AT pilots if they went to arbitration they would never combine the operation and kill off their airline until they were all jobless.

I guess if you can ignore the gun pointing at their heads, you could say the AT pilots did agree so arbitration wasn't necessary....

 

[Jim]

Jim, you should know better than to forward crap like that. Don't you think that if such a letter had been put out, it would have thrown up on this board inside of two minutes? Now that General Lee has gone legit (and I commend him for trying his hardest, even in the face of provocation), don't be the new "that guy." You know which guy I'm talking about--the guy who gloats and takes every opportunity to predict the upcoming demise of Southwest.

Bubba

Three longtime SWA pilots all saying the same thing and in total agreement does not seem like "crap" to me. It sounds like there is a possibility of truth. It was relevant to the discussion so I passed it on.

Since this blew up last night, I also talked with a friend who I flew with at Scenic years ago that has been at SWA for about 4 or 5 years. He said that he thinks SWAPA is in for a fight for your next contract. He's pretty sure that management will ask for "efficiencies" in your work rules and a pay freeze if not a cut. He thinks in the end that you won't take a pay cut but there will be little or no raises. He also thinks your work rules will take a hit. He does not see it being a win but at best a neutral outcome. I've known this guy since 1999. Should I call what he tells me crap because it's different from your opinion?

I was not gloating about anything. I have nothing to gloat about. And if you go back and search my posts, I have never called for the demise of SWA. Nor have I ever said it wasn't a good job or a good place to work. I have pointed out some short comings but I have also pointing out shortcomings at my own airline. What I have done is pointed out the "holier than thou" attitudes of certain SWA pilots on this board that seem to think anyone not at SWA shouldn't dare have an opinion contrary to theirs.

General Lee, "that guy", etc.? I happen to think General Less has had some very valid points. I think you are as much "that guy" as you claim General Lee or I am being. You can not take anyone posting anything other than praise for SWA. You immediately attack anyone that does. Maybe you should also reexamine your posting history and try to emulate the General's new philosophy.

 

[Jim]

SWA Bubba, SWAdude and Dash Power - I'm out. I'm not going to go around post after post with you like you all seem to enjoy. I've said what I think and you've said what you think. You've criticized me and I've criticized you. More post aren't going to change anything so I'm done.

Enjoy your airline and I'll enjoy mine.

 

[SWAdude]

They signed an agreement stating if a single list could not be agreed upon, than it would go to arbitration. Then they told the AT pilots if they went to arbitration they would never combine the operation and kill off their airline until they were all jobless.

I guess if you can ignore the gun pointing at their heads, you could say the AT pilots did agree so arbitration wasn't necessary....

So by choice you believe the AT pilots over the SWA pilots on this one.

But I will tell you the truth, no gun pointed to anyones head. The ATN MEC started acting disrespectful so the company pushed back. But at no time did the company say they would dismantle AT if they didn't take the agreement. That is utter BS that their MEC started pushing to save face. Period.

BTW this is a discussion board. I participating in the discussion. You want a private discussion, stay on whatever board SWAPA or SWA has.

??????????????????????????

I'm not trying to prove anything to you. I posted what I heard and you jumped to the attack and called me a liar.

Show where you were called a liar. How can you be taken seriously if you make up more crap like this.

Further, there has been talk on this site of the adversarial relationship between SWAPA and management and of management going after your contract. I've had SWA jumpseaters going to/from Hawaii that have said they think the "good times" are over and SWAPA is in for a fight when the next contract negotiations start.

Sigh......
I work for the company and don't hear this stuff. How does this even get brought up? Are you instigating the conversation? People are upset about the AT purchase for certain. But we hardly talk about that anymore. We actual look for some of the positives and hope for the best. ITS OVER. And our negotiations haven't gone on long enough to garner any comment. Weird.

I just personally believe that the AT pilots got hosed and the kool aid is getting watered down.

If they got hosed, their MEC did it to them. They turned down TA1 and then try to play hardball with the ones who had their futures in hand. And the company indirectly reminded them of that. But there was no gun to a head. After 5 years of hardball negotiating with ATN I believe they took the militant stance and brought it on to the masters of negotiation. Believe me. I have 20 years of seeing how good these people are. And you don't piss them off.

What I have done is pointed out the "holier than thou" attitudes of certain SWA pilots on this board that seem to think anyone not at SWA shouldn't dare have an opinion contrary to theirs.

And there you have it Skippy. I have spent much time just reading all this and guys like you say things like.........

"I just jumped in a SWA cockpit. They were talking about a letter all the pilots got from management saying that the company was getting ready to ask for pay cuts and concessions.

Maybe it's not going to be such a big pay raise for the AT guys...."


....and you call that opinion.

That is BS is what it is but you want to present it as FACT.

Enjoy your airline and I'll enjoy mine.

Who ever said you didn't enjoy your airline? Is this what you think this is about? That we think that since we enjoy our airline then none should ever enjoy theirs?

This has been, and always will be, about what is the truth. Nobody is the bad guy here. But there is alot of hate coming the SWA way for something that started with the AT CEO and their BODs selling their airline and employees without any care about securing their futures. The hate is highly misdirected. Fortunately they sold it to a company that had their concerns in mind. Some other airlines may not have.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Three longtime SWA pilots all saying the same thing and in total agreement does not seem like "crap" to me. It sounds like there is a possibility of truth. It was relevant to the discussion so I passed it on.

Like I said, if the letter you claimed really existed, it would have been posted on this board within the hour of it being sent out. You know that. Two seconds of thought on your part, and you would have realized it. Yet you seem to have wanted it to be true so you could insert it in a discussion that basically was between SWA guys and Airtran guys. And we know which side of that discussion (or any similar one) you're on, whether you have any facts or not.

Since this blew up last night, I also talked with a friend who I flew with at Scenic years ago that has been at SWA for about 4 or 5 years. He said that he thinks SWAPA is in for a fight for your next contract. He's pretty sure that management will ask for "efficiencies" in your work rules and a pay freeze if not a cut. He thinks in the end that you won't take a pay cut but there will be little or no raises. He also thinks your work rules will take a hit. He does not see it being a win but at best a neutral outcome. I've known this guy since 1999. Should I call what he tells me crap because it's different from your opinion?

I didn't so much primarily respond with an opinion, but rather pointed out that there was NO SUCH LETTER. I suspect that your friend, being a 4-5 year FO, is one of the group feeling the brunt of the integration woes, falls into the category of disgruntled and/or pessimistic. He's entitled to his opinion, which may be different than my own, but if he tells you that management has asked for pay cuts or concessions, then YES, you can tell him it's crap, because it hasn't happened.

I was not gloating about anything. I have nothing to gloat about. And if you go back and search my posts, I have never called for the demise of SWA. Nor have I ever said it wasn't a good job or a good place to work. I have pointed out some short comings but I have also pointing out shortcomings at my own airline. What I have done is pointed out the "holier than thou" attitudes of certain SWA pilots on this board that seem to think anyone not at SWA shouldn't dare have an opinion contrary to theirs.

Really? Here's your initial quote (although SWADude beat me to it):

I just jumped in a SWA cockpit. They were talking about a letter all the pilots got from management saying that the company was getting ready to ask for pay cuts and concessions.

Maybe it's not going to be such a big pay raise for the AT guys....
​

I bolded the personal commentary part of your quote that cried out as gloating. Jeez, all it lacked was a big smiley face. In truty, even if SWAPA payrates stayed the same, it's still a big raise from ALPA rates.

General Lee, "that guy", etc.? I happen to think General Less has had some very valid points. I think you are as much "that guy" as you claim General Lee or I am being. You can not take anyone posting anything other than praise for SWA. You immediately attack anyone that does. Maybe you should also reexamine your posting history and try to emulate the General's new philosophy.

I never said that General Lee never had valid points. He often does. However, if you think that everything he posted that was SWA-negative was a rational, valid point, then YES, you are becoming "that guy." Because even the General admitted that he was over the top on a lot of occasions, and was going to tone it down. I suppose you don't want him to?

I don't care if you praise SWA or not. I understand that Airtran guys have valid complaints, and don't blindly defend everything SWA does. I've mentioned and seconded SWA's crappy IT department and other inefficiencies. The only time I gave the General crap was about his over-the-top stuff. And the only time I ever "attack" anyone is to address blatant falsehoods, like the existence of the so-called "pay cut and concessions" letter that you so proudly introduced into a SWA-Airtran argument. One, by the way, that initially involved neither you nor me.

If you're "out," then good for you. If you go back and read my posts, you'll see that I'm not one of those guys who goes tit-for-tat on stupid things. However, when someone introduces "crap," then I'll respond. Whether that's you, General Lee, or anyone else.

Think about it, Jim. A supposed Southwest management letter talking about "pay cuts and concessions." And if it was sent to all the pilots, how come no one knows about it other than three guys bitching in a cockpit? It's utterly absurd, and a moment's rational thought would have made that abundantly clear to you. Why did you believe it? Because you wanted to believe it, that's why. What does that say about you, Jim?

Bubba

 

[freightdogfred]

The man merely relayed an anecdote he heard in the cockpit while jumpseating. The man merely relayed his personal opinion on the SLI, as he saw it, after hearing both sides of the argument. Because his beliefs do not agree with SWA bandwagon he's labeled a hater, and ridiculed. No wonder he's out of here.

I'd say if SWA comes looking for concessions ya'll should call him up and apologize.