SWA Safety ALERT RW 23 ILS KBUF

[Kream926]

guys thats been NOTAM'd and on the ATIS since probably 1998 when i started flying there

 

[atrdriver]

guys thats been NOTAM'd and on the ATIS since probably 1998 when i started flying there

So that means that it couldn't have bitten someone? The Rockies have been there for 20 million years, but every now and then someone flies into them.

 

[Kream926]

true but like some other guy said GS capture inhibited unless LOC capture. at least that how it is in the ERJ. if the LOC was captured they well would have been within 5 degrees

 

[atrdriver]

true but like some other guy said GS capture inhibited unless LOC capture. at least that how it is in the ERJ. if the LOC was captured they well would have been within 5 degrees

I have many times, on several aircraft types, when APPR was armed the LOC signal would jump, erroniously, causing the A/P to try to capture it. Since the GS needle is off scale top, the AP would try to climb to catch it while the AP started a turn to catch the false LOC, since it thinks it has LOC capture. It happens. And it would go a long way toward explaining something like this. If the crew was distracted by ice, or something else, they would have been surprised, and who knows what could have happened.

 

[Propsync]

I have many times, on several aircraft types, when APPR was armed the LOC signal would jump, erroniously, causing the A/P to try to capture it. Since the GS needle is off scale top, the AP would try to climb to catch it while the AP started a turn to catch the false LOC, since it thinks it has LOC capture. It happens.

Yup. I've seen this on the 328jet. Maybe twice. Want to say ILS 23 into MSN. Now I kinda wish I would have filled out a report of some type.

 

[Bako Cap]

Base to final 24R in LAX has an erronious signal that is several degrees to the right of the actual localizer. The AP on the CRJ will sometimes capture the false localizer and turn inbound only to turn back to intercept the real localizer.

 

[Britpilot]

I have many times, on several aircraft types, when APPR was armed the LOC signal would jump, erroniously, causing the A/P to try to capture it.

Saw this last week in a 737-700. Not the first time either. Also seen it go after the slope (climb) without LOC capture. It happens.

 

[DiverDriver]

Anybody verify that this is a real alert, and not some snarky, in poor taste attempt at humor?

I don't know about this alert but a NOTAM has been posted about this for months that I've been operating into BUF over the winter. Not sure how old the NOTAM is but it has been awhile.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Base to final 24R in LAX has an erronious signal that is several degrees to the right of the actual localizer. The AP on the CRJ will sometimes capture the false localizer and turn inbound only to turn back to intercept the real localizer.

CAE...ILS 23 when capturing from the South. Not sure what the heck the plane sensed, but it was waaaay off.

 

[XShuttle]

From section 6.4 page 17 of the CAL 737 flight manual:

"Glideslope capture is inhibited prior to localizer capture."

It is true of all transport catagory aircraft because often times the G/S is unreliable more than 30 degrees or so off the loc, and often the mode is armed outside of that arc.

Not true......A319/320 and the 737-300 (UAL's at least) will capture G/S prior to LOC capture.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

Good article.

http://pgillard.ep.profweb.qc.ca/280-165/glideslope.pdf

 

[atrdriver]

Not true......A319/320 and the 737-300 (UAL's at least) will capture G/S prior to LOC capture.

Fine. Your's are programmed that way. Ours aren't, and I posted the passage from our Flight Manual.

 

[deadstick]

Just because some is (or isn't) designed/programmed to do something, that doesn't mean it CAN'T do something totally different. If that were the case, Vista would be cool.

http://www.johnny-five.com/images/sc/scenes/lightning.jpg

 

[atrdriver]

Not true......A319/320 and the 737-300 (UAL's at least) will capture G/S prior to LOC capture.

But, I would almost bet that your FOM also states for both aircraft that G/S capure is inhibited until LOC capture occurs. I believe that is a certification requirement of autopilots. I already stated that although each and every aircraft I have flown is designed like that, I have had several instances where a false LOC capture causes a problem.

 

[firstthird]

dude, a little trouble admitting you were wrong? you made a blanket statement. numerous posters have said it was BS. you retreat to telling us what our FOMs say? not a strong position, imo.

We all have things to learn, that is why many of us frequent a forum like this. this only works if you are willing to admit you don't know it all. I will as soon as I'm wrong about something. joke.

 

[atrdriver]

dude, a little trouble admitting you were wrong? you made a blanket statement. numerous posters have said it was BS. you retreat to telling us what our FOMs say? not a strong position, imo.

I believe it is a certification requirement, period. I am attempting to verify that. And since you are apparently reading impaired, I already stated, SEVERAL TIMES, that while all 3 aircraft that I am typed in have autopilots that are designed to NOT CAPTURE the GS until LOC captures, there are instances that it will, through LOC signal noise. Is that really that difficult to understand? And did you even look at your FOM? I looked at all of mine and each has a statement similar to the one in the CAL 737 FOM.

 

[atrdriver]

OK, it is not a certification requirement, it is something that each operator can request. But it is the default that G/S capture be inhibited until LOC capture has initiated.

 

[JumpersAway]

Would, could, or shouldn't.......I've had the aircraft abruptly pitch up, agressively, to chase a g/s when it has just started to come alive going into Atlanta. The CRJ-200 has done that to me two or three times. Even better, is that they were all CAT II certified aircraft.

Everyone is harping on the icing issue, but I'm thinking it was a conglomeration of multiple events- Icing, coupled with a configuration/airspeed change and an autopilot anomaly to shake things up. Talk about nasty- aircraft pitches up aggressively and the stick shaker suddenly kicks in. Whoa- what a nasty ride!

My sincerest hope is that the crew comes out of this with their dignity. It's one thing if it was blatant pilot error or clowns in the cockpit, but I just don't think that's the case- a good crew with a run of bad luck and timing...........

 

[328dude]

GS capture in the Boeing is inhibited with APP Mode selected and greater then 45 degrees of intercept of the selected course on the MCP..