SWA Pilot union gives away flying!

[ACL65PILOT]

Think of this though. To get from lets say MDW, to YYZ on Westjet, it would not be on you. It would be on them. Be careful.

 

[Mach 80]

ACL,

Ok, so they ride on Westjet.

What you have to look at is the total package.

No domestic code share. Limits on trans-border code sharing.

Raises, retro, new holiday pay, new premium pay to include some 1.5x ($270/hr) and 2x pay rates (over $400/hr)at 2010 rates, improvements in 401K including a Roth 401K option, mandated # of a/c by certain dates, the list goes on. No pilot group is going to get every little thing they want. The pluses far exceed the minuses. So...they ride Westjet from MDW to YYZ. Ok - a minus but there are more pluses. In the meantime, no domestic code share plus everything else I mentioned. Very acceptable., including the $187 trip at the end of 2010 ($215/hour to fly a 737).

 

[GuppyWN]

Mach 80,

Read the fine print. ALL CODESHARE LIMITS are removed 1/1/2013. SL32 will basically "expire" 12/31/2012.

I can only assume SWAPA thinks we will have another agreement in place by then but we are 2.5 years beyond our amendable date now.

Gup

 

[murano]

Very acceptable., including the $187 trip at the end of 2010 ($215/hour to fly a 737). Give me that premium J/A -- $430/hour.

.... and the cat is out of the bag. We are trying to piss against the wind with this senior 12+ year SWA Captain. He doesn't need growth. Who cares about codeshare? He's already flying TUE-WED-THU lines and gets the top pay scale. I'm not even going to argue with this dude.

 

[Mach 80]

I disagree Guppy. The TA says No DOMESTIC CODE SHARE plus the 6% limit stays untill the contact is amended plus they have to get an agreement with SWAPA before ANY OTHER code sharing agreements.

Am off to the Bahamas for a few days with no internet. Ahhhhh...

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

2% is very weak considering the inflation rate was 2.85% in 2007 and 3.85% for 2008. That’s a paycut. Wasn’t LUV profitable in 2007 and 2008? If so, why would you vote yourself a paycut?? At least hold your ground.

The codeshare is also very troublesome. I’d be very concerned especially for the more junior troops on the property. This is the proverbial camel’s nose under the tent and will drastically change your culture. Mexican flying for most of us is just domestic flying.

BTW, did FO percentage pay to Captain go up?? We’re hearing it did. What percentage does FO pay top out?

I know most of LUV guys probably think this is still the old Herb culture but in today’s new breed of airline executives, it’s the pilot’s that are the enemy. You’re a top cost unit that must be beaten down.

Good luck to you all on the vote. It’s always a tough vote and it’s easy to speculate from the sidelines. Just remember, there is always more on the table. It’s like buying a car on the first offer from the dealership.

AA767AV8TOR

 

[radarlove]

Ah...hubris. Bitching about making $400/hour.

I really, truly want to bring some of you SWA guys over to my furloughed friend's house.

RJs and stupid management cost them their jobs and you guys don't even recognize how good you have it, if you actually killed RJs dead.

You're starting to look like United in 2000, or Pan Am in 1984.

 

[Mach 80]

murano,

It's all the same man. Union reps all the time say to vote for what is best for your wallet and family. Let's say I wanted to fly to age 65 because this is my 5th airline and got screwed on my retirement. I doubt you helped me out there, or did you? It's all the same principle. Different issues have different values for different people. Too bad but that's the way it is.

Besides, the code share is limited and not as bad as the little mob mentality has got you all spun up about.

 

[Mach 80]

>>>>Bitching about making $400/hour.<<<

Who was doing that? Please cite it.

 

[GuppyWN]

Mach,

Enjoy the sun and relax. It will be a nice change to the never-ending winter. I'll edumicate you some more when you get back.

Gup

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Boy, the web sites are really buzzing. The SWAPA forum and some anonymous forums have lots of SWA
Pilots angrily telling us how they are gonna vote on this.

For all the bluster and the "I'm voting NO" statements....remember we saw the same amount of "no" rhetoric when Herb offered us the bribe of the 2 yr extension on the then-10 yr contract. That contract has now been in effect for 12 plus years.

Why? Because it passed by almost 70% ....thats why. And that after the then-SWAPA BOD sent it out with a "no" vote recommendation.

BTW...the SWAPA PResident at that time got us the 2nd highest pay raise in SWAPA history...and was promptly voted out of office in the next election.

Goes to show you how fincky pilots can be.

Sorry...but this one passes.....codeshare and all.

 

[RedDogC130]

Hey MACH 80...where are the raises from 2006...if we do not get the money from then it is a concessionary contract. period. I think there were record profits that year right? Try to look 15 years down the road and see how this wouuld affect the pilot group with this codeshare. So what is your vote....please say if you have decided. Mine is NO.

 

[GuppyWN]

Dog,

We got a raise in 2006. It was the last "bump" on the day the contract became amendable.

Gup

 

[maxblast72]

You guys got no RJs, a raise and are bitching? Seriously?

I need to introduce you to some of my friends over at US Air.

The reasons alot of pilots bitch is due to a major change in career expectations. We have had this at Airtran with upgrades times going from 2.5 years to 8-10 years within a years time. I imagine alot of the unhappy people at Southwest are 2002-2004 hires that were expecting 5-7 year upgrade and are now looking at 10-12 years with the 65 rules and no growth.

It is easy for the senior people to be happy since it isn't their expectations that have changed greatly. Happens at every airline.

 

[Whine Lover]

"In a courtroom on the campus of Indiana University on Wednesday, March 25, Judge Lorch approved .... the sale of the ATA certificate and LGA gates to Southwest. "

 

[vixin]

AA767,
The rates top out at 70%.
Gup
I dont know why guys dont understand we received a raise in 06'.

Mach80
My guess is you are a senior I have mine guy, but for the rest of us this TA is crap to be nice. There are several 4 digit guys that are vocal about voting it down. To them I say thanks for looking out for the entire pilot group. There are so many holes and restrictions on the pilots side it isnt funny.Yet the company side has teeth. This TA is a POS and I hope it gets voted down. The NC did a very poor job. Them and the sweet 16 should be kicked out of SWAPull property.

 

[Slug]

Other than codeshare, one of the biggest problems is that this POS TA destroys almost all flexibility in scheduling. 2 weekends a month are closed to trading. What you bid is what you get on those weekends. It is at the discretion of the company which two. You can only drop 4 duty periods (days) a month. Even if you fill those 4 days in, you cannot drop another day, even if picking something else up. Half of the lance captains go back to F/Os. Very little ability to drop stuff and even less ability to pick stuff up. The guys that do stay lances can only pick up 9 duty periods a month. I laugh at Mach 80 because he will lose flexibility too. If he wanted to drop a trip, put it in giveaway and, poof it was gone. Not so now, there will be no starving lances to pick it up.

Despite miniscule raises, temporary protection of our flying, some addition to retirement (less than $1500/year for me), almost guaranteed lack of raises in '10 and '11, this TA sucks pretty bad.


Slug

 

[pipe]

Think of this though. To get from lets say MDW, to YYZ on Westjet, it would not be on you. It would be on them. Be careful.

It takes a whole bunch of flights to Canada and Mexico to get to the 6% ASM cap.

PIPE

 

[Dude]

There are, without question, negatives in this TA. However, the pro column is much bigger than the con column.

• Pay raises; Retro; 2% 401k bump (while others are decreasing); Scope language that actually defines all of our flying and that only we can do it; NO RJs unless we purchase a carrier that already operates them and then it remains status quo; prohibition on domestic codeshare; and some other gains.
• Reduction (by half and Lances get hosed, but there's an increase in Captain positions) in the Lance Captain program; allowance of trans-border codeshare and little restrictions on that; ELITT restrictions (this one sux); first year pay potential reduced; and a few other negatives.

The point being that there is NO perfect agreement. What good is a perfect contract when a company can be noncompliant at will with the support of an arbitrator? Just ask the APA how good their language is to them when a judge gets a hold of it. If any company wants to participate in any activity-they will. Labor cannot stop it when judges won't even uphold agreements.

We locked out domestic codeshare, wetleases, alter-ego flying, far-international codeshare, Hawaii, Alaska, and RJ's. Everyone is getting spooled up over the "duration of the agreement" language. This agreement is amendable, it doesn't expire. When the contract is amendable, we remain status quo and we keep trucking as if the contract went on forever.

News Flash: We are back at the table in 2011 and it would take a job action to get codehsare off the property. If you don't like codeshare, call Ike and Hugo. They are the ones that wanted it instead of a merger with ATA. They were asked and went the codeshare route. Tell Ike and Hugo how you feel and thank them for codeshare because they brought it to you.

 

[thruthemurk]

Just curious as to what the 401K or Bfund is bumping to. In addition, do you get an automatic profit sharing or stock purchase/issuance program?

Thanks from a JB guy surrounded by guys who don't understand the difference between profit sharing and retirement.

Good Luck,
Murk

 

[fandango]

That thing has more holes than prairie dog town. No RJ's unless you buy someone that already has them? Are you kidding me? You can buy a company right now that flys RJ's at a blue light special. You dont see that as the nose of the camel? Cuts are cuts and giving away scope is death by a thousand cuts.

 

[Splert]

That thing has more holes than prairie dog town. No RJ's unless you buy someone that already has them? Are you kidding me? You can buy a company right now that flys RJ's at a blue light special. You dont see that as the nose of the camel? Cuts are cuts and giving away scope is death by a thousand cuts.

There is only one reason language like that is included.

That means they are looking at buying a RJ lift provider for $0.10 on the $1.00. Mesa is about $0.001 on the $1.00.

 

[Daddy]

There are, without question, negatives in this TA. However, the pro column is much bigger than the con column.

• Pay raises; Retro; 2% 401k bump (while others are decreasing); Scope language that actually defines all of our flying and that only we can do it; NO RJs unless we purchase a carrier that already operates them and then it remains status quo; prohibition on domestic codeshare; and some other gains.
• Reduction (by half and Lances get hosed, but there's an increase in Captain positions) in the Lance Captain program; allowance of trans-border codeshare and little restrictions on that; ELITT restrictions (this one sux); first year pay potential reduced; and a few other negatives.

The point being that there is NO perfect agreement. What good is a perfect contract when a company can be noncompliant at will with the support of an arbitrator? Just ask the APA how good their language is to them when a judge gets a hold of it. If any company wants to participate in any activity-they will. Labor cannot stop it when judges won't even uphold agreements.

We locked out domestic codeshare, wetleases, alter-ego flying, far-international codeshare, Hawaii, Alaska, and RJ's. Everyone is getting spooled up over the "duration of the agreement" language. This agreement is amendable, it doesn't expire. When the contract is amendable, we remain status quo and we keep trucking as if the contract went on forever.

News Flash: We are back at the table in 2011 and it would take a job action to get codehsare off the property. If you don't like codeshare, call Ike and Hugo. They are the ones that wanted it instead of a merger with ATA. They were asked and went the codeshare route. Tell Ike and Hugo how you feel and thank them for codeshare because they brought it to you.

Dude,
We got housed here plain and simple. The ELITT changes are SEVERE...there will be NO real ELITT or flexibility now...that is a huge QOL concession. Probably the one thing that makes life so good here is flexibility and that is GONE with this TA. Our retirement is subpar to ALL other majors. Even JetBlue gets a 5% match and a GUARANTEED 5% profitsharing (that's 10% and more than ours). Our pay rates have to be higher to make up for the lack of retirement. The outsourcing protections still have no teeth despite all the concessions. We got our asses handed to us by a skillful and smarter SWA negotiating team. Pilots are just so dumb...it may still pass even now.

 

[Daddy]

ACL,

Ok, so they ride on Westjet.

What you have to look at is the total package.

No domestic code share. Limits on trans-border code sharing.

Raises, retro, new holiday pay, new premium pay to include some 1.5x ($270/hr) and 2x pay rates (over $400/hr)at 2010 rates, improvements in 401K including a Roth 401K option, mandated # of a/c by certain dates, the list goes on. No pilot group is going to get every little thing they want. The pluses far exceed the minuses. So...they ride Westjet from MDW to YYZ. Ok - a minus but there are more pluses. In the meantime, no domestic code share plus everything else I mentioned. Very acceptable., including the $187 trip at the end of 2010 ($215/hour to fly a 737).

Mach 80, you can forget about premium pay...it aint gonna happen anymore! Why? Because we just gave away the farm on the ELITT/scheduling changes...did you read the TA? There will be NO trading off weekends AT ALL...this is a huge win for the company. 2 weekends a month EVERY month with no real trading off weekends and no real lance program anymore. you think you are going to get any real premium pay now? No chance...guess what...it aint gonna happen but for the very top of the list. Reread the actual language and you will see what a bone job this thing is. Dont skip the new open time system either. This is all a scheduler's wet dream...they could not have played us better.

 

[328dude]

Just curious as to what the 401K or Bfund is bumping to. In addition, do you get an automatic profit sharing or stock purchase/issuance program?

Thanks from a JB guy surrounded by guys who don't understand the difference between profit sharing and retirement.

Good Luck,
Murk

Profit sharing is the same in this TA as the last. 401K is as follows.
2009=100% up to 7.8%
2010=100% up to 8.8%
2011=100% up to 9.3%

While these numbers are ok for the most part, the scheduling changes will have a huge impact on a lot of people here, including me.

Still reading, but still a "NO" vote mainly because of Section 1 (Scope) and scheduling changes.

 

[GuppyWN]

Dude,

Pull up open time for Captains in any base on any given day. What do you see? Nothing? One trip? Now pull up ELITT. In most bases there are less than 10 trips and net zero is over 20 - for the entire month. If you think cutting lances by half will increase captain positions you are wrong. It will simply be shown as an increase in ELITT and DOT.

Gup

 

[MOCO]

Guys and gals,
Any thoughts on limiting this discussion to our SWAPA forum? This I think would be a more appropriate venue.

 

[TV9Driver]

i heard that this new TA reduces first year pay. Does anyone have the specifics?

Thanks from a poolie in waiting...

 

[lindsaya99]

Pay raises; Retro; 2% 401k bump (while others are decreasing); Scope language that actually defines all of our flying and that only we can do it; NO RJs unless we purchase a carrier that already operates them and then it remains status quo; prohibition on domestic codeshare; and some other gains.

Looks like this will be the only way I'll ever fly a plane with "Southwest" on the side of it.

 

[328dude]

i heard that this new TA reduces first year pay. Does anyone have the specifics?

Thanks from a poolie in waiting...

No, it's not reduced. Goes up to 49 and change I think per trip. I'm to disgusted to look at the document anymore.