SWA Pilot broke rules at MDW

[Slug]

I am well aware that brake temp and energy absorbed are, in essence, the same.

What I was getting at is this:

If I slow a 115,000 pound airplane from 125 kts to 0 kts in 6,500 feet, I am killing a certain amount of energy. If I do this using manual braking or autobraking it does not matter which, I will dissipate the same amount of energy. Therefore, within a few degrees, my brake temp will be the same, regardless of what method I use. The lack of autobrake use at this company, has zero, zilch, zippo to do with brake temps at the gate. Regardless of the technique, they would be roughly the same. I've been here almost 3 years and have never had to wait on the brakes to cool.

Lowercur, you know not of which you speak. You educate yourself by reading what real pilots, pretend pilots, wannabe pilots say on this board. You blindly take in their thoughts as facts and then argue whatever point you feel like taking at that point and time. I laugh at what all these 737 experts say we do wrong. They haven't read our FOM (which the FAA has approved), haven't been through our training (which the FAA has approved), don't go to our recurrent (which the FAA has approved) and have no clue how SWA does it. Hell, you aren't even a pilot, how do you validate all you spew? Like I said, you listen to what people on this board say, even though you have no idea what their qualifications are. Again, just go away, be a loser somewhere where you have some knowledge that is your own.

As an aside, 30 minutes for a scheduled turn is embarrasing almost. Most of ours are 20-25. Do you think the company would change our procedures (we are in the process of utilizing autobrakes) and expand our turns by almost 50%? No!

Slug

 

[Uncle Leo]

How come MDW does not have cellular concrete at the end of the runways like many other airports with “shorter” runways?

 

[lowecur]

Lowercur,

Brake temp is not a problem because the jet stream dies down after 8 o'clock in the evening.

Remember??

Taz, your the man. Thanks for explaining this to scorecard. You got the score there scorecard?

Now Taz, do you have brake cooling chart on board? How about a brake temp monitor? Care to elaborate on the temp max before push back is viable? Here's a little validation from a former SWA pilot.


Southwest pilot violated braking policy

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]
December 14, 2005
BY MARK J. KONKOL Transportation Reporter


The Southwest Airlines pilot at the helm during Thursday's snowy crash at Midway Airport told federal investigators he used the Boeing 737's "autobrakes," a device airline officials say their pilots are told not to activate.
National Transportation Safety Board investigators said they found the autobrake switch in the "maximum" position on the flight panel. The system is designed to activate when the landing gear hits the runway.
Investigators are still trying to determine if the system was operable when flight 1248 overshot the runway, crashed through an airport barrier fence into traffic, killing 6-year-old Joshua Woods as he rode in his family's car.
The pilot's use of the autobrakes against airline policy raises questions about Southwest's braking procedures, especially for landing in inclement weather. [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]


Aviation sources said Southwest is preparing to lift the ban on autobrakes, but Federal Aviation Administration, NTSB and Southwest officials would not comment or provide documents regarding requests or plans to change Southwest's flight operation procedures regarding autobrakes.
Southwest spokeswoman Linda Rutherford would not provide any details, policies or flight procedures regarding the use of autobrakes because that system -- along with the plane's reverse thrusters and the tailwind landing -- have fallen under the scope of the NTSB investigation. She confirmed that using autobrakes was not Southwest policy.

A former Southwest pilot with 13 years experience said the airline's decision not to use autobrakes has historically had more to do with on-time performance than safety. Bert Yetman of the Professional Pilots Federation said that during his tour with Southwest, pilots were told to slow planes to 80 knots using reverse thrusters before applying braking systems. That allowed planes to stay in the air as long as possible -- with 10-minute turnaround times -- avoiding the "brake cooling period" required when brakes are used at speeds higher than 80 knots, Yetman said. "Safety does not come into question. It's how long the runway is and how quick you want to turn around," he said.

High setting on brakes

The pilot told investigators autobrakes were at a high setting and "deployed virtually the moment the plane lands on the runway," NTSB officials said.
As flight crews began to realize the plane was not decelerating the way it should, they "took over the brakes and pressed them as hard as they could," according to the NTSB.

The plane left the runway, blasting through the airport fence near 55th and Central, raising questions about whether the short safety zone beyond the airstrip is adequate.

City aviation officials have been working with the FAA on ways to make the runway and safe zone longer. The city submitted a proposal in May 2004, which the FAA returned asking officials to "add more to this," FAA spokesman Tony Molinaro said.

There was never a deadline on when the work or study should be completed, and negotiations were not final, he said. It's part of a national effort to lengthen runway safe zones that has been in the works for five years.
Molinaro said 46 airports have made improvements and 37 still need changes. "Midway is one of them," Molinaro said. "And it's one of the challenging ones."

Another tool

In addition to the autobrakes, transportation expert Aaron Gellman, head of Northwestern University's Transportation Center, says part of the crash probe should center on whether the pilot was using the plane's "head-up display" which provides flight path guidance in low visibility landings.
"It's used in such a way that touchdown is at a very low speed and also puts you down right near the end of the runway," Gellman said. "If he was not using it, he was not using one of the major tools available to him."
Rutherford said the cockpit of the plane in Thursday's crash was equipped with the "head-up display," but she would not say whether the pilot was using it at the time of the crash.

Navigational equipment on runway 31-C knocked out in Thursday's crash was repaired and checked by 6:50 p.m. Tuesday, when the runway was open to accept air traffic, aviation department spokeswoman Wendy Abrams said.
[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[canyonblue737]

How come MDW does not have cellular concrete at the end of the runways like many other airports with “shorter” runways?

the system requires about 600 feet of space beyond the runway while MDW only has 45-130 feet depending on which runway you are talking about. 31C has I think about 50 feet or so. the technology simply isn't possible with EMAS.

also let me just say this, without going further, the statements on the "why" of using or not using autobrakes at SWA has nothing to do with the conjecture of the orginial poster. i don't intend to go further, obviously others have, but let me also add my voice to saying brake temps, turn around times etc. have NEVER been part of the reason to use or not use autobrakes on the 737 at SWA.

 

[lowecur]

I
As an aside, 30 minutes for a scheduled turn is embarrasing almost. Most of ours are 20-25. Do you think the company would change our procedures (we are in the process of utilizing autobrakes) and expand our turns by almost 50%? No!

Slug

Read my last response, you lummox! Your response makes you sound like GWB.


:smash: imp:

 

[lowecur]

Set em up perfectly

You have to admit that I set up our little friends at WN perfectly. Welcome to my Web said the spider. :laugh: imp:

 

[Slug]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]A former Southwest pilot with 13 years experience said the airline's decision not to use autobrakes has historically had more to do with on-time performance than safety. Bert Yetman of the Professional Pilots Federation said that during his tour with Southwest, pilots were told to slow planes to 80 knots using reverse thrusters before applying braking systems. That allowed planes to stay in the air as long as possible -- with 10-minute turnaround times -- avoiding the "brake cooling period" required when brakes are used at speeds higher than 80 knots, Yetman said. "Safety does not come into question. It's how long the runway is and how quick you want to turn around," he said.


He is a former SWA guy. Since I have been here we have changed the 80 kt rule for the brakes. This was specifically changed in Apr 02. I don't know where he gets his info, but the on-time performance is not the reason for the manual braking. Listen, you can take the words of others or you can know from your own experience. You aren't a pilot at SWA so you don't know.

We don't do 10 minute turns anymore. That statement by Bert pretty much disqualifies everything he says. It says to me he's been gone from SWA for at least 10 years. It also tells me you have no thoughts or knowledge of your own and must rely on second hand info to attempt to make your point. Like I said, you aren't here, haven't been here, and don't know. The point you made in your very first and subsequent posts is based on the lack of knowledge of others; not from your own experience/knowledge.

As another aside, the reason is the rollerbag. Everyone, all 137 pax, feel they all have to have 2 carry ons. Loading and unloading pax is the biggest slowdown in turning an aircraft quickly. When I was at UAL, I used to think 45 minutes was an unusually quick turn. Now, if its not less than 20 minutes I don't consider it remotely fast. I've seen a 12 minute turn before.


Slug

p.s. I like GWB, better than any Dem candidate, and you are still a loser, web spinner.
[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Falcon Jet 1]

Lowercur,
Again youre an idiot, just spoke with retired Capt. Yetman, he was misquoted and was misinformed as our policies have changed since he retired. We dont wait till 80 knots to apply brakes. Why am I doing this to myself trying to explain this crap to an insurance salesman, we should let the ntsb do their job, for Gods sake a little boy died.

 

[B767Inst]

Just a quick question for the SW guys. The article that keeps getting posted states that the NTSB found the autobrake switch in the Max position. Then goes on to state that the pilot started to brake manually. On the 767, if you brake manually, the autobrake system disarms and the switch moves to the disarm position, does the 737 operate the same? If so, there would seem to be a disconnect in the facts.

 

[lowecur]

Lowercur,
Again youre an idiot, just spoke with retired Capt. Yetman, he was misquoted and was misinformed as our policies have changed since he retired. We dont wait till 80 knots to apply brakes. Why am I doing this to myself trying to explain this crap to an insurance salesman, we should let the ntsb do their job, for Gods sake a little boy died.

This thread has nothing to do with incrimination of SWA towards the accident, so stop with the tear jerk response. It just has to do with the lack of use of the autobreak for productivity reasons.