SWA Pilot broke rules at MDW

[lowecur]

LOWECUR

Once again you raise the bar with your "analysis" Very true!

SWA does not use autobrakes, so he actually "followed" company policy. What part of this "news report" don't you understand?: National Transportation Safety Board investigators said they found the autobrake switch in the "maximum" position on the Boeing 737 flight panel after it landed Thursday in a heavy snowstorm and skidded onto a busy street. Numerous posts here have indicated max manual braking is more effective than autobraking anyway.

let the NTSB and various safety groups do their job.....

when we need a quote on whole life policy, we will call you. No thanks, I like clients that pay their bills

......imp:

 

[densoo]

Numerous posts here have indicated max manual braking is more effective than autobraking anyway

But what difference does it make when it isn't applied as quickly as the auto?

 

[lowecur]

Lowercur,

Just stick to insurance. I don't know where you got your 30 min turn crap, but its not true. Sure it is, what other reason would they have to use manual braking? Do the brakes have to be at a certain temperature before pushing back? Are you saying autobraking doesn't raise the brake temp higher than manual? I'm not even a pilot, and I'll bet I'm right. If I were your flt instructor, I would recommend you look into a future as an FA.

We have been training on the autobrakes for the past couple of months and nothing has ever been mentioned of brake temps. You need to get new instructors. It is a matter of energy absorbed.

Go away, just go away.

Slug



and yes, I know it is lowecur, but lowercur seems more appropriate

.....imp:

 

[T45Flyer]

If it is true that the crew used the autobrake system than that is a violation of company procedures. BUT, the pilots might have actually thought that the autobrakes were authorized.

We (SWA pilots) were within days of actually being able to use Autobrakes and there were many pilots that were confused when the actual turn on day was. The confusion was due to the amount of revisions and RBF's and new checklist in the cockpit that actually had an "Autobrake" challenge and reply on it.

I sincerely do not believe these guys were being cowboys and doing what they wanted and knowingly violated company procedures. This will probably turn out to be one of many items in the accident chain.

 

[Crossky]

(From The Chicago Sun-Times)

Feds: Pilot battled braking system

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December 11, 2005
BY [EMAIL="[email protected]"]STEVE PATTERSON[/EMAIL] AND [EMAIL="[email protected]"]DAVE NEWBART[/EMAIL] Staff Reporters



The pilot of the Southwest Airlines jet that crashed through a fence at Midway Airport last week struggled with the plane's thrust reversers as he tried to slow down on a snowy runway, costing him seconds of braking time, federal investigators said Saturday.
The pilot was unable to push a lever to deploy the thrust reversers, which are part of the plane's braking system. The first officer had to reach over to provide the extra push needed to deploy the "stopping enhancement," said Robert Benzon, the National Transportation Safety Board's lead investigator in the crash.
"For some reason we haven't pinned down yet, he couldn't get them to go up so he could push them forward," said Benzon. "There were seconds of delay."
Benzon labeled it "problems deploying the thrust reversers" and said the flaw was the only anomaly found after two days of investigating the Thursday evening crash, which killed a 6-year-old boy who was in a car with his family outside the airport.
Tire treads, visibility and the plane's weight all appeared to be normal, Benzon said.
What's not yet clear, however, is exactly how long the thrust reversers weren't in use during the plane's 32-second trek down the runway, and what impact the delay had on the crash.
"That's going to take a long time to figure out," Benzon said.
The plane crashed through two fences and landed on cars on Central Avenue during a snowstorm, killing Joshua Woods, 6, and injuring the Indiana boy's family. Leroy Woods, the boy's father, was released from a suburban hospital Saturday and briefly visited the crash site with his wife, their attorney said.
The Boeing 737 was finally removed from the street Saturday afternoon, although the streets remained closed as airport officials continued working to rebuild the damaged airport wall.
'Weather was a concern'


It took about five hours to remove the plane and take it to an airport hangar, a painstakingly slow process that featured a large sling attached to a massive crane. The plane's nose was snagged on a fire hydrant, delaying the removal. The sling was wrapped around the nose of the plane as crews lifted it up and hoisted it onto a flatbed trailer.
At a news conference Saturday night to update the progress of the probe, Benzon said the plane's pilots had been interviewed for three hours each.
He also said National Weather Service meteorologists told the NTSB a 20- to-30-mile-wide band of snow blanketed the area Thursday night, which Benzon described as a "unique weather phenomenon."
The plane's crew spoke with air traffic controllers about the weather before the landing, said Benzon, who added: "The weather was a concern."
As the plane touched down, its autobrakes were put on maximum. The 59-year-old pilot then tried to apply the thrust reversers to help slow the plane, Benzon said.
After being deployed, the reversers began a four-stage cycle that is normally completed as a plane barrels down a runway. The Southwest jet's reversers only reached the third stage before the plane crashed through the airport wall at 7:13 p.m., Benzon said.


The crew realized they weren't stopping quickly enough and took over the autobrakes, he said.
"They knew they were coming to the end of the runway," he said. "As the flight crew began to realize [the plane wasn't stopping], they took over the brakes and pressed them as hard as they could."


Could take year to find cause


The investigation, Benzon said, "now gets somewhat boring" as "very minute, rather tedious work" continues.
NTSB investigators will continue to take measurements, survey the scene and take detailed looks at the fuselage, engines and other damaged parts. The exact cause of the crash could take up to a year to determine, officials said.
Investigators also plan to pore over footage shot by 11 cameras at the airport that could have caught some or all of the landing, he said.
"We hope to be able to tell the condition of the runways by those images," he said.
Meanwhile, funeral arrangements for Joshua Woods, of Leroy, Ind., won't be set until Monday, said a spokesman for Smit's Funeral Home in Steger.
An autopsy showed that Joshua, who was singing a Christmas carol just before the plane hit his family's car, suffocated in the accident.
His mother, Lisa, and younger brothers, Matthew and Jacob, were also in the car but were not seriously injured. Joshua's father broke bones in his face and skull and was hospitalized at Advocate Christ Medical Center in Oak Lawn until Saturday, family attorney Ronald Stearney Jr. said.
After being released, Leroy and Lisa Woods decided they wanted to visit the crash site, and the NTSB gave them permission, said Stearney, who accompanied the couple.
But as they approached, Stearney said, the sound of jetliners brought tears to their eyes. Lisa closed her eyes until the airport was out of sight.
Joshua's brothers are also having a difficult time coping with his loss.
"The children are not acting right," Stearney said. "They're withdrawn."
A memorial fund has been set up: the Joshua Woods Memorial Fund, c/o Centier Bank, 1276 N. Main, Crown Point, Ind.
Contributing: Post-Tribune [email protected], [email protected]


Quotes concerning the use of brakes and autobrakes I left in bold underlined italics. It doesn't matter how they left the switch, it matters what they did with it. They testified that they turned the autobrakes off and braked manually near the end of the runway.
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[SWAdude]

Well not to throw rocks....but....energy absorbed does translate to brake temp. Brake temp should not come into play until modertae braking is used and you should have a brake cooling chart somewhere in your perfromance data.
In the 727, if moderate braking was used the normal turn time was 44 min but could be reduced by refering to the brake cooling charts. The old technology didnt have brake temp monitors. At least in the 747 we have a brake temp monitor.

We have that information on our release. It is weight related and I only have seen a problem if we land in the 300 at high altitude airports (ABQ) on hot days. I also think we are using carbon brakes where the 727 I believe were steel.

SWA as everyone knows, and some very critical of, doesn't operate our 737's just like other airlines. It doesn't make this less safe, just different. The truth is we have not used the auto-brakes for landing. We have the RTO set up, but have not been approved to use them for landing. Ironically, we are all set up now to use the auto-brakes for landing. We have been trained, the system is activated on all our aircraft, even the revision is in our ops manuals. We just have been waiting for the go ahead from flight ops which is overdue due to some stupid problem in the wording of one or two sentences in our manual. Remember we work together with the FAA so this delay I'm sure has to do with our POI giving the go ahead. The timing of this new procedure with this equipment and our accident is so incredibly ironic that its sickening.

We as pilots are conditioned to follow the rules religiously. Most of us pick and choose which ones need not or should not be followed at times with great consideration. Not only am I surprised that these two pilots turned on the operable auto-brake system, I am pleased that they did. That was truly great airmanship in my opinion.

The most important aspect of this issue is this.The autobrake system was not the cause of this accident.

This is my first post on this subject and I want to thank all on here who have given there well wishes to all of us at SWA. It truly was great to see and confirm what a great profession I belong to. I can not describe the sadness my airline felt the evening of and the day after the accident. We will all learn from this and take the appropriate measures to try and keep this from happening again.

 

[FN FAL]

Almost 40 non-signed in guests reading the thread, amazing.

So what's the deal, is lowcur pulling our leg?

 

[wnplt]

There have been media reports and forum posts in the past as to criticizing the crew for not using the autobrake system, a safety system installed on the Boeing 737, but SWA chooses not use that system. Now, It sounds like they did elect to use the autobrake system at MAX and now media says how they broke company policy and that gives the Attorneys in the case more ammunition. I don't get it...Da#m if you do Da#m if you dont...

 

[scoreboard]

.....imp:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slug
Lowercur,

Just stick to insurance. I don't know where you got your 30 min turn crap, but its not true. Sure it is, what other reason would they have to use manual braking? Lot of reasons, 30 min turn is not one of them. Do the brakes have to be at a certain temperature before pushing back? NO. Are you saying autobraking doesn't raise the brake temp higher than manual? NO, they do not, proven by Boeing. I'm not even a pilot Thank GOD!!, and I'll bet I'm right. Nope, your not, foiled again by the truth. If I were your flt instructor Again, your not, I would recommend you look into a future as an FA. And yours as a monk

We have been training on the autobrakes for the past couple of months and nothing has ever been mentioned of brake temps. You need to get new instructors. Again, your ignorance on the subject is documented. It is a matter of energy absorbed.

Go away, just go away.

Slug



and yes, I know it is lowecur, but lowercur seems more appropriate

.....imp:

......!!!

 

[calfo]

The autobrake system on the Boeing 737 works great, but is not a substitute for manual braking. The "max" setting on autobrakes is not really max braking - it will give you 18 feet/second/second deceleration rate. The only autobrake mode that is truly full/maximum braking is rto. Setting 1 autobrakes gives you 3 ft./sec./sec. decel. rate, setting 2 gives you 7, and setting 3 gives you 9.