SWA Pilot broke rules at MDW

[SWAdude]

Well not to throw rocks....but....energy absorbed does translate to brake temp. Brake temp should not come into play until modertae braking is used and you should have a brake cooling chart somewhere in your perfromance data.
In the 727, if moderate braking was used the normal turn time was 44 min but could be reduced by refering to the brake cooling charts. The old technology didnt have brake temp monitors. At least in the 747 we have a brake temp monitor.

We have that information on our release. It is weight related and I only have seen a problem if we land in the 300 at high altitude airports (ABQ) on hot days. I also think we are using carbon brakes where the 727 I believe were steel.

SWA as everyone knows, and some very critical of, doesn't operate our 737's just like other airlines. It doesn't make this less safe, just different. The truth is we have not used the auto-brakes for landing. We have the RTO set up, but have not been approved to use them for landing. Ironically, we are all set up now to use the auto-brakes for landing. We have been trained, the system is activated on all our aircraft, even the revision is in our ops manuals. We just have been waiting for the go ahead from flight ops which is overdue due to some stupid problem in the wording of one or two sentences in our manual. Remember we work together with the FAA so this delay I'm sure has to do with our POI giving the go ahead. The timing of this new procedure with this equipment and our accident is so incredibly ironic that its sickening.

We as pilots are conditioned to follow the rules religiously. Most of us pick and choose which ones need not or should not be followed at times with great consideration. Not only am I surprised that these two pilots turned on the operable auto-brake system, I am pleased that they did. That was truly great airmanship in my opinion.

The most important aspect of this issue is this.The autobrake system was not the cause of this accident.

This is my first post on this subject and I want to thank all on here who have given there well wishes to all of us at SWA. It truly was great to see and confirm what a great profession I belong to. I can not describe the sadness my airline felt the evening of and the day after the accident. We will all learn from this and take the appropriate measures to try and keep this from happening again.

 

[FN FAL]

Almost 40 non-signed in guests reading the thread, amazing.

So what's the deal, is lowcur pulling our leg?

 

[wnplt]

There have been media reports and forum posts in the past as to criticizing the crew for not using the autobrake system, a safety system installed on the Boeing 737, but SWA chooses not use that system. Now, It sounds like they did elect to use the autobrake system at MAX and now media says how they broke company policy and that gives the Attorneys in the case more ammunition. I don't get it...Da#m if you do Da#m if you dont...

 

[scoreboard]

.....imp:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slug
Lowercur,

Just stick to insurance. I don't know where you got your 30 min turn crap, but its not true. Sure it is, what other reason would they have to use manual braking? Lot of reasons, 30 min turn is not one of them. Do the brakes have to be at a certain temperature before pushing back? NO. Are you saying autobraking doesn't raise the brake temp higher than manual? NO, they do not, proven by Boeing. I'm not even a pilot Thank GOD!!, and I'll bet I'm right. Nope, your not, foiled again by the truth. If I were your flt instructor Again, your not, I would recommend you look into a future as an FA. And yours as a monk

We have been training on the autobrakes for the past couple of months and nothing has ever been mentioned of brake temps. You need to get new instructors. Again, your ignorance on the subject is documented. It is a matter of energy absorbed.

Go away, just go away.

Slug



and yes, I know it is lowecur, but lowercur seems more appropriate

.....imp:

......!!!

 

[calfo]

The autobrake system on the Boeing 737 works great, but is not a substitute for manual braking. The "max" setting on autobrakes is not really max braking - it will give you 18 feet/second/second deceleration rate. The only autobrake mode that is truly full/maximum braking is rto. Setting 1 autobrakes gives you 3 ft./sec./sec. decel. rate, setting 2 gives you 7, and setting 3 gives you 9.

 

[regionaltard]

Lowercur,

........nothing has ever been mentioned of brake temps. It is a matter of energy absorbed.

They're one and the same. If autobrakes are more effective i.e., they absorb more of the aircraft's kinetic energy, the end result of that work will be more heat.

 

[wndshr]

[ Not only am I surprised that these two pilots turned on the operable auto-brake system, I am pleased that they did. That was truly great airmanship in my opinion.

The most important aspect of this issue is this.The autobrake system was not the cause of this accident.

I agree...I think that using the autobrake system was a great decision. Assuming that all parameters of the autobrake system including RTO were functional fleetwide. (Did SWA deactivate everything but RTO?) Anyway, it was a great decision in my book. Manual braking in my opinion does not apply equal psi to the brakes especially in slick weather and as someone said earlier..you can have your heels on the floor controlling the rudder at the higher speeds.

This in my opinion is clear attempts of a lawyer and the press trying to exploit an unfortunate situation independent of any technical understanding of the facts. IOW...making money selling newspapers and chasing ambulances...sickening

 

[El-Rushbo]

This may a bit off topic but it just occurred to me. The press releases stated that the CA had been with Southwest for 10 years and the FO for, I believe 2.5 years. I thought WN only started hiring again in early 2004. 2.5 years with Southwest would put the FO's hire date around mid 2003. Were the press reports in error, or was the FO somehow hired before the rest of the new hires? Just curious.

 

[SWA/FO]

That was one slippery runway.

 

[lowecur]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slug
Lowercur,

Just stick to insurance. I don't know where you got your 30 min turn crap, but its not true. Sure it is, what other reason would they have to use manual braking? Lot of reasons, 30 min turn is not one of them. Then I suggest you give us the top five reasons Do the brakes have to be at a certain temperature before pushing back? NO Really, then why did a previous poster state otherwise. Are you saying autobraking doesn't raise the brake temp higher than manual? NO, they do not, proven by Boeing. That's like letting Merck state that Vioxx is safe. I'm not even a pilot Thank GOD!!, and I'll bet I'm right. Nope, your not, foiled again by the truth. yup, vindicated by concensus. If I were your flt instructor Again, your not, But I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express! I would recommend you look into a future as an FA. And yours as a monk. I love that position.

We have been training on the autobrakes for the past couple of months and nothing has ever been mentioned of brake temps. You need to get new instructors. Again, your ignorance on the subject is documented. It is a matter of energy absorbed.

Go away, just go away.

Slug



and yes, I know it is lowecur, but lowercur seems more appropriate

.....imp:

......!!!

,,...imp:

 

[vv100]

at least 10 newhire classes in '03 if memory serves

 

[The Prussian]

This may a bit off topic but it just occurred to me. The press releases stated that the CA had been with Southwest for 10 years and the FO for, I believe 2.5 years. I thought WN only started hiring again in early 2004. 2.5 years with Southwest would put the FO's hire date around mid 2003. Were the press reports in error, or was the FO somehow hired before the rest of the new hires? Just curious.

During 911 we delayed hiring for several months, but resumed at beginning of '02, and have hired every year since.

 

[The Prussian]

,,...imp:

I'm just going to ignore him.....I'm just going to ignore him.....I'm just going to ignore him.....I'm just going to ignore him..........I'm....

 

[avbug]

Just reading along, but Scorecard...that was really funny. Point, set Match!

Lowercur...as in cur of a lesser nature? Isn't that like changing your name to latrine because everything worse is already taken? Walter mitty had nothing on you, mate.

 

[TAZ MAN]

.....imp:

Lowercur,

Brake temp is not a problem because the jet stream dies down after 8 o'clock in the evening.

Remember??