SWA or DAL?

[Scope out RJ's]

Like someone else said, just take a look around this forum. You can get enough information from this board, just by reading some of the dribble that is posted here. Ask yourself, would I want to sit for 3 or 4 days next to some of these guys? Not me, I never applied to Delta, seemed like way too uptight a pilot group for me. I would think that if you even have to ask between SWA or Delta, you belong at Delta. It's like deciding between the Playboy Mansion and The 700 Club Compound, where would you rather spend the weekend? Yeah, it's THAT different.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

A prime example of the pompous, "I bought my job at southwest," attitude.
Be careful sport, that fall is going to be rough on you when you're pulling gear for some Air Tran guy who "didn't have to buy his job."

 

[General Lee]

Is there any chance at all that mainline can capture the "jumbo RJ" flying? JMHO but that would not only benefit DAL pilots but would be a step in the right direction for the entire profession.

We have payrates for CR9s and E175s, anything over 76 seats. (those versions go up to 86 seats I believe) We also have payrates for E190s and E195s. There is a limit to the number of 76 seaters, and they are fast approaching it, and it was known they would eventually hit it. I think they are allowed 20 more, and this year they should get those, but also park 60 50 seat RJs. I don't see Dalpa ever allowing (without a BK judge) more, and that is why management is currently bringing the number up. They know the sentiment. If they get long term contracts for those 76 seaters, they probably will be honored, unless that is negotiated away with financial penalties.

I think we should focus on a 100 seater for mainline, like a new C-series or some 717s or E190/E195s, and also any 76 seaters that drop off their contracts should be thrown onto a mainline certificate with mainline pilots. As their contracts expire, we could pick them up. It will be interesting to watch the UAL/CAL fight for those planes too. I think that will guage what the rest of us try. Regardless, allowing extra 76 seaters at the Regionals must stop.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[GogglesPisano]

I always hear how SWA guys love their job, what about the DAL guys?

I love my job, too. I look forward to going to work everyday knowing that I've fulfilled a childhood dream of landing my "dream job" at one the legacies. The layovers, equipment, meals, QOL, and hotels -- especially on the international side -- are fantastic. The pilot group is first-rate -- very laid back, friendly and personable. I honestly don't know where this "uptight" reputation that an earlier poster alluded to comes from. High-caliber, overachieving-- yes. I've flown with more service academy grads than you can shake a stick at. But they don't advertise it other than through their professionalism and all-around "great guy/gal" demeaner. Uptight -- absolutely not!

Here's my opinion:

They are both great employers. SWA rates are higher right now, but if you've got a long career ahead of you I wouldn't recommend looking at today's rates. Pay scales can easily go up -- and come back down over the years. Just look at UPS and UAL rates 10-15 years ago -- or SWA's and DAL's for that matter. With the NWA merger DAL is minting money -- UAL will likely do the same and hopefully the legacy pilots will reap some long-awaited rewards for a decade of sacrifice in the next few years.

What is less likely to change is the type of flying you are most likely going to be doing. And under that microscope the two companies coudn't be more different. "What type of flying would I like to do?" is so fundamental a question I really have to ask if Skywiz was serious when he posed it. The answer is in the mirror, not on FI.

Now that I've opined, please let this useless thread die.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Is there any chance at all that mainline can capture the "jumbo RJ" flying? JMHO but that would not only benefit DAL pilots but would be a step in the right direction for the entire profession.

That chance will be coming in the 2012 contract negotiations. We HAVE to take it... it's screwing over all of our careers here in the US.

How to do it? I think the most logical and cost effective will be to require that the flying be brought back to mainline as the contracts expire/come up for amendment and not allow anymore outsourcing contracts or amendments. That will take a few years but it accomplishes the goal while not incurring large penalties.

 

[StopNTSing]

Lots of good arguments here, but it all really comes down to the uniform. It's a powerful symbol of the different cultures these two companies represent. Which do you think fits your personality better: Leather or Double-Breasted?

Answer that question honestly to yourself and you'll know where to send your app.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Lots of good arguments here, but it all really comes down to the uniform. It's a powerful symbol of the different cultures these two companies represent. Which do you think fits your personality better: Leather or Double-Breasted?

Answer that question honestly to yourself and you'll know where to send your app.

Why not send it into both? I did. Got calls from both, too.

 

[Tripower455]

Thanks for the info General. I'm most interested in quality of life and time at home at this point in my life. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but Southwest is 15 days off on reserve and line holders average 18 days off?

That's probably pretty close...... I don't sit reserve, so have no clue how that's been going.

FWIW, there is a tremendous amount of flexibility (even after our latest CBA limited a bunch of it) with our schedules.

I am definitely a QOL kind of guy. I don't care what I fly or where I go 3-4 days a week, in between my time off .

I am a mid level Capt. I had one week of vacation in Dec and one in Jan (I can't hold Christmas vacation). Between Dec 1 and today, I've worked a total of 15 days, and got paid almost 200tfp. If I was willing to make myself available to fly, I could've made a lot more. I live in FL, so this is the time of year to be home, plus I avoid a lot of the nasty white stuff up north.

Normal months, I work 13-15 days and make over 100tfp, and I am not even close to a high time flyer. I have a long drive, and like to limit it to 4 times per month (I am sometimes able to do 3 if I can fit a 3 day and 2 day back to back in there) and still make about 100 tfp.

YMMV, but I am very happy with my job, paycheck and schedule. Well, I was until 9/27!

 

[jonjuan]

Lots of good arguments here, but it all really comes down to the uniform. It's a powerful symbol of the different cultures these two companies represent. Which do you think fits your personality better: Leather or Double-Breasted?

Answer that question honestly to yourself and you'll know where to send your app.

DOn't forget to add the white short-sleeved shirt with the skinny black tie. :laugh:

 

[nwaf16dude]

Yeah, "plus a lot of the guys at SWA have seen the World." So, they now want to mainly see West Texas? If they saw it in the Military, they might not have seen it how Airline guys see it. And, plenty of DL guys saw it too in the Military, and that is why they go back now, as much as they can. (do you understand my hint?) And do you think DL guys flying 744s, A330s, or 767s flying to Asia or Europe are your bee-atch? What does that make you when I want to fly to Little Rock or El Paso? Wait, I never want to go there.....

BTW, it's great you make fun of Rod's enthusiasm. What's wrong with him being an Eagle or Expressjet Capt? Is that bad? Were you a Regional Captain? Those two airlines seem like pretty good ones. I am sure you were never like that in his position. You yourself are wildly excited about SWA, and that is apparent. So what if he has opinions on your SLI, so do we all. That's what they are, opinions.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Yeah, I saw a lot of the world in the military... mostly the sh#tty parts, unfortunately. I'm ready to see more of the good parts, but I can't touch an international trip these days.

Just to be clear, unless you are willing to bid into NYC and sit reserve for a very long time, a new-hire won't be flying international (consistently) at Delta anytime soon. I've been here 12 years (pre-merger dal equivalent about 10 years and no, I'm not trying to dredge up any kind of SLI argument) and the only way I could be a line-holder in an international category is in NYC. In my base, DTW, I'm just barely a block-holder, and the international flying is long gone by the time they get to me.

I don't mean to sound like I'm complaining, just want new hires to have realistic expectations when they get hired here. You will most likely be stuck on domestic narrowbodies for quite a while. You might be able to bid into MSP, or DTW on the 757/767 ER within a year, but it is an extremely rare event for the bottom guys in those categories to get an international trip. Reserves on the ER in NYC get more international, but that category is getting more senior every time we have an equipment bid.

Bottom line, I'm glad I'm at Delta, and I think the company is very well positioned to thrive going forward. SWA is a great company, of course. Personally, I didn't apply there because I wanted the option to fly long haul some day.

 

[dicko]

What is less likely to change is the type of flying you are most likely going to be doing. And under that microscope the two companies coudn't be more different. "What type of flying would I like to do?".

You're making some large assumptions about the type of flying SWA will be doing in 5 to 10 years. Things change. Much like pilot contracts, as you correctly "opined".

I'm wondering why you mentioned the service academy grads ? Every airline has them. The fact that you were moved to mention them undermines your characterisation of Delta pilots. Perhaps you'll be compelled to feverishly research the numbers .... In the 90's United claimed they were the "smartest pilot group". They used post graduate degrees as a measure. It didn't appear to help.

Perhaps hat wearing will be the new measure Although that doesn't seem to affect pay, time to upgrade, QOL or safety either.

 

[T-1GUY]

So which cities are junior ? What would 1st and 2nd year pay look like ???

 

[Helos2Galaxy]

SWA is a great company. In 2007 2 squardron mates and myself were hired by both SWA and Delta in 2007. We all chose Delta because we saw Delta on the upswing. I currently fly the 757/767 and enjoy the variety of domestic and international flying. My buddies fly the 737 and 88. My family takes one big trip each year courtesy of Delta, the kids are spoiled cause they always go first class and they love it. The family has been to Rome, London, and South Africa so far. Life is good at Delta. Best of luck to you.

Yeah, what he said...

I am a 767 gy and do mostly international, but can do a 2 day NYC-west coast for a change of pace. My kids are 10 & 8 and been to 8 different countries; SWA is a terrific company but for my family and I we like the ability to see the world.

Ask any current SWA or DAL guy in ~~ 20 years and we'll let you know which decision was the right one...

Maybe Gulfstream Int' will take over the world and that'll have been the best choice?! ;-0

 

[Ty Webb]

Perhaps hat wearing will be the new measure

Heh-heh!

I don't think you could go wrong with either airline. This subject has come up on F.I. many times in the past, and I think the best suggestion I have seen is to make a written list detailing what things you believe will be most important to you and your family. . . . Things like where you want to live (or commute from), what type of flying you want to do, days off, benefits, nonrev travel, scheduling flexibility, type of aircraft, upgrade, retirement, etc. and then seeing where each airline stacks up in regards to your personal situation.

What sort of Pilot culture best matches your personality?

For the past 6 years, I have flown with several dozen former DAL Captains, who came to AirTran after taking the early retirement in order to salvage as much of their pensions as possible. Most of them were former 767ER Check Airmen, who were now serving as ol' Ty's FO. I have to say that every single one of them was a real pleasure to work with . . . . not only did they do a great job in the airplane, but they were never negative, despite their change in fortune, and were consummate professionals all around. They would usually come out for a beer or two, and were fun to hang out with, despite the decade or two difference in our ages. A great bunch of guys.

The SWA pilots seem to have much in common with the AirTran pilots- we work hard, play hard, and have a good time doing both. Also, a great bunch of guys, probably a little more prone to stay out later, due to the younger age of the crews and the relative youth of our airlines. :beer:

As I said above, I don't think you could go wrong with either airline. Try to get as far as you can in the process with both companies, and if you get two offers, consider yourself one very fortunate Aviator! Make the best decision you can, and then don't look back.

Best of Luck!

 

[dragontamer]

Just the facts. SWA guy. Great folks to fly with. Domiciles are great--I'm in LAS (very junior) and love it. 3 Yr FO--W-2 block 5 was $158k. Doesn't include about $25k in 401k match and PS. I do fly extra--about 125 trips/month--usually block between 75-85 hours. Just bid on March--lines were between 90 and 100 trips with 17-19 days off. Something I think that is often overlooked is how productive SWA's scheduling and lines are. I will do a 2 day many times that leaves around 4 PM and gets back the next night around 10 PM. About 15 hours in the hotel (ELP is fine with me!) and 13-16 trips accomplished in not much more than 24 hours. Work rules, flexibility and atmosphere are great at SWA.


That's my side, but if I were on the street I would be excited about working for either.

 

[Chubaka]

Ask Snickers the kitten who is the better airline. He knows about retirement at Delta.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Ask Snickers the kitten who is the better airline. He knows about retirement at Delta.

Southwest kills kittens as a matter of procedure. Sick, sick airline.

 

[GogglesPisano]

I'm wondering why you mentioned the service academy grads ? Every airline has them. The fact that you were moved to mention them undermines your characterisation of Delta pilots. Perhaps you'll be compelled to feverishly research the numbers .... In the 90's United claimed they were the "smartest pilot group". They used post graduate degrees as a measure. It didn't appear to help..

You missed my point. I was refuting a mischaracterization that Delta pilots were uptight. I wasn't using their achievements as a selling point for someone considering working here, or evidence that someone's career will be more prosperous here. Instead I was illustrating that this is the most laid back, comfortable pilot group I've had the pleasure of working with.

 

[say again]

You missed my point. I was refuting a mischaracterization that Delta pilots were uptight. I wasn't using their achievements as a selling point for someone considering working here, or evidence that someone's career will be more prosperous here. Instead I was illustrating that this is the most laid back, comfortable pilot group I've had the pleasure of working with.

They were always a pleasure to JS on (pilot wise, FA's and gate agents were a different story)! :beer:

 

[say again]

SWA-you may have a chance to be on TV

 

[SplitBar]

Delta has great company culture so if that is your main reason for SWA than I would look at DAL for similiar reasons. I am fairly new to the Delta family but I have been extremelly impressed how well the company treats and values their employees. I am biased but I would say it rivals what SWA has in terms of corporate culture.