SWA or DAL?

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Less mainline seats equals less mainline jobs...just sayin'


From Atlanta Business Chronical...

Delta Airlines posted its first profit in years in 2010, and now it looks to reduce the size of its fleet, tackle its debt and fight fuel costs in 2011 through fare hikes and other methods.
That will be the message from Delta President Ed Bastian, who is scheduled to make a presentation to the Raymond James Global Airline Conference on Feb. 3. The presentation was pre-filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
Bastian will say the Atlanta-based airline is set to reduce debt by $7 billion over a three-year period. It also plans to battle the spike in fuel costs through revenue, capacity and fleet efficiency. This will include cutting more than 250 small domestic aircraft such as turboprops, 50-seat jets and DC9s; adding 100 newer MD90s and two-class regionals.
Delta’s fleet in December 2007 totaled 1,482 : 693 regional aircraft, 169 international and 620 domestic mainline. As of December 2011, it projects a fleet of 1,318: 600 regional aircraft, 179 international and 539 domestic mainline.
With jet fuel prices jumping some 20 percent to $2.75 a gallon in just the last 100 days, Bastian will say Delta can fight those costs by accelerating the retirement of aircraft; raising domestic fares and tacking on international fuel surcharges; trimming capacity; and cutting capital spending to keep free cash flow at $1.8 billion.


Read more: Delta to accelerate fleet size cuts, raise fares | Atlanta Business Chronicle

Notice the time frame of the comparison. It's what the shareholders want to hear. They are comparing to when both fleets were their largest anytime post bk which was in 2007. We cut capacity dramatically during the economic implosion (avoided furloughing a single pilot, too). The only planes left to cut from that list are the DC-9-50s, and we've got more MD-90's coming than there are 9-50's.

The thing that sucks is that there is no mainline replacement for the -30's and 40's that have already been parked. It's no secret, however ugly, that the E170's and 175s and jumbo CRJs are their replacements.

 

[johnsonrod]

Notice the time frame of the comparison. It's what the shareholders want to hear. They are comparing to when both fleets were their largest anytime post bk which was in 2007. We cut capacity dramatically during the economic implosion (avoided furloughing a single pilot, too). The only planes left to cut from that list are the DC-9-50s, and we've got more MD-90's coming than there are 9-50's.

The thing that sucks is that there is no mainline replacement for the -30's and 40's that have already been parked. It's no secret, however ugly, that the E170's and 175s and jumbo CRJs are their replacements.

There are replacements for the DC9-30, the 717 and C-series. So far you haven't heard much about them for Delta, but that could change. You guys still have a limit on 70 and 76 seaters, which is good. I don't see you guys changing that, hopefully.

 

[General Lee]

Less mainline seats equals less mainline jobs...just sayin'


From Atlanta Business Chronical...

Delta Airlines posted its first profit in years in 2010, and now it looks to reduce the size of its fleet, tackle its debt and fight fuel costs in 2011 through fare hikes and other methods.
That will be the message from Delta President Ed Bastian, who is scheduled to make a presentation to the Raymond James Global Airline Conference on Feb. 3. The presentation was pre-filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
Bastian will say the Atlanta-based airline is set to reduce debt by $7 billion over a three-year period. It also plans to battle the spike in fuel costs through revenue, capacity and fleet efficiency. This will include cutting more than 250 small domestic aircraft such as turboprops, 50-seat jets and DC9s; adding 100 newer MD90s and two-class regionals.
Delta’s fleet in December 2007 totaled 1,482 : 693 regional aircraft, 169 international and 620 domestic mainline. As of December 2011, it projects a fleet of 1,318: 600 regional aircraft, 179 international and 539 domestic mainline.
With jet fuel prices jumping some 20 percent to $2.75 a gallon in just the last 100 days, Bastian will say Delta can fight those costs by accelerating the retirement of aircraft; raising domestic fares and tacking on international fuel surcharges; trimming capacity; and cutting capital spending to keep free cash flow at $1.8 billion.


Read more: Delta to accelerate fleet size cuts, raise fares | Atlanta Business Chronicle

Remember, this states from 2007, not as of today. And, DC9s may be leaving, but MD90s are coming. Also, certian planes require more pilots. One size plane doesn't equal another. If you get 10 777s, that equals 40 DC9s in terms of pilots. Flights over 8 hours require 3 pilots, and flights over 12 hours require 4. ATL to Johanesburg is easily over 12 hours.

The recent announcement stated that the Regionals would dump 60 smaller RJs, get up to 20 of the larger ones (up to a limit that was already known), and dump older DC9s to be replaced with MD90s.

I think you are wrong. Just sayin..... and more scheduled retirements means more new jobs and less stagnation (SWA). Just sayin.....



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

There are replacements for the DC9-30, the 717 and C-series. So far you haven't heard much about them for Delta, but that could change. You guys still have a limit on 70 and 76 seaters, which is good. I don't see you guys changing that, hopefully.

We won't. I have heard stuff about the 717s, and maybe looking at the C-Series. I personally like the E195, and we have payrates for those.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Crash Pad]

Hey Jrod, let the people who actually work at both answer these questions. Not your biased hopes and dreams. Like someone said, go clean a pool or mow a lawn in Peachtree City to grab your LOR.

 

[Jetdriver69]

Although I'm not an airline guy, I love it when I hear "I want to see the world". Well it ain't that fun most of the time. Do you really want to see 12+30 and 5800nm to go on the FMS? I love going places, its the getting there that is a pain.

 

[say again]

Rod,

He hates your enthusiasm. You sound motivated and know what you want, and some on here are mad at their own decisions in life. Stay positive.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Ah, but that is where you are completely wrong. Nice try though.

 

[Bill Nelson]

We won't. I have heard stuff about the 717s, and maybe looking at the C-Series. I personally like the E195, and we have payrates for those

We have been hearing the same at SWA and I just read a quote from Gary Kelly stating that he has been approached about selling the ATN 717's. Where there is smoke there is fire. I'd bet you get around 86 717's plus crews this summer.

 

[Whodat]

Like my pal Johnsonrod states, Delta has variety. That includes time away from home. A lot depends on seniority on the plane and which plane you are on. If you are junior and bid a widebody, you may be on reserve a long time, and your schedule is unknown. If you are junior, you may want to bid a narrowbody for the first few years to gain some better QOL, and then transition to the widebody for route variety.

Domestic schedules can vary from 1 day trips to 5 day trips. Commuters tend to like the 5 day trips because they can be worth close to 30 hours, and that means less commuting. People living in base tend to like 1 or 2 day trips, so they can be home more, and ready to pick up any greenslips (double pay on days off) if trips arise and the company needs help.

Certain fleet types have different trips too. Widebody schedules are different than domestic narrowbody. The 757/767, A330, and 744 fleets have trips up to 12 days long. That may sound brutal, but they are popular with commuters because of one commute each way, and if they do one of those 12 day trips (worth 80+ hours) at the beginning of the first month, and then one at the end of the next month, they can have over 30 days off in between. The 12 day trips on the 757/767 (out of almost all ER bases---ATL, MSP, DTW, SEA, LAX, NYC) mostly consist of a flight to the West Coast, then Asia via Hawaii or nonstop to Tokyo (NRT), Beijing, or Osaka, then bounce around Asia for 10 more days, before coming back to your base, sometimes with a deadhead. (often a day before scheduled because the last day has a layover and then a deadhead home) The flights around Asia are fairly easy, often with one leg from NRT to Saipan or Guam, and then 24 hours in a tropical hotel. The 744s and A330s have the same type of trips, but with longer legs. I saw a 744 trip that went DTW to NGO (Nagoya), over to Manila, over to NRT, over to HNL, back to NRT, over to LAX, back to NRT, and then back to DTW. Lots of legs, one of the layovers was over 48 hours (HNL I think), but very productive and then lots of days off when home.

Sure, those trips can be hard on your body via timezones, and if you feel tired all of the time, you can bid off the equipment any time you want (after 2 year seat hold is over). But, I have met guys who absolutely love it, and will never bid off until they can hold Captain on the same type of equipment. You see plenty older FOs flying those A330s and 744s because they just love that lifestyle. Higher pay and lots of consequtive days off.

So, if you are new, you may want to fly narrowbodies domestically for awhile and become a lineholder sooner. That will help with your quality of life. If you need to be on a widebody ASAP, then expect to be on reserve. I think the days off are 11 minimum in a 30 day month, and 12 in a 31 day month. I haven't been on reserve in awhile, but I think that is right. You can choose the INTL lifestyle, and if you like it, great. If you don't, then go back to domestic. There are different fleets to choose from, and plenty of bases.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Thanks for the info General. I'm most interested in quality of life and time at home at this point in my life. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but Southwest is 15 days off on reserve and line holders average 18 days off?

 

[AirMorgan]

Here is what I did: I compiled a list of all the airlines (pax & cargo) that I thought I'd like to fly for (approximately 15). I then analyzed the things that mattered most to me (QOL, bases, pay, culture, etc) and found that there were only 3 airlines I was willing to leave my current job for. They were (in no particular order) DAL, FedEx, and SWA. I applied to all three and told myself I'd take the first offer and never look back.

DAL was the first to offer me a job so that's where I landed. I felt great about the decision and never second guessed myself. I'm still very happy where I am. However, had SWA called first, I'd be there...with no regrets. I think they are both great companies with their own strengths and weaknesses (no place is perfect). Bottom line--if you get the call from either of these companies...just be grateful.

 

[Mikes Apartment]

Although I'm not an airline guy, I love it when I hear "I want to see the world". Well it ain't that fun most of the time. Do you really want to see 12+30 and 5800nm to go on the FMS? I love going places, its the getting there that is a pain.

It ain't that fun if you're a corporate tool. In the airlines we swap out of the cockpit on scheduled breaks and sleep in bunks while we're getting paid. Dozing for dollars is best on long flights. Maybe you should apply to Southwest, you can get a ton of short flights at that airline.

 

[Ty Webb]

That actually sounds like fun...... except Ty will be the one jerking gear. I'm already senior to him so that aint gonna change.

I've got a couple mean vodka recipes and I'll bet security won't be too tight so ole Ty and I will be able to push on time on our way to round up a couple love us long times.

Right Ty?

Gup

On the flights to Asia, I will be honored to jerk the gear, eat the chicken, take the fat one, and compliment Gup on the smoove autoland. :beer::beer::beer:

 

[johnsonrod]

Hey Jrod, let the people who actually work at both answer these questions. Not your biased hopes and dreams. Like someone said, go clean a pool or mow a lawn in Peachtree City to grab your LOR.

Yeah, let's also stay out of the affairs of Egypt. It's their deal. All cameras off there. Nobody should see what they are doing but themselves. Thanks Einstein!

 

[Crash Pad]

Skywiz asked about the pros/cons of working at DAL and SWA. You have worked at neither, or doubt you have a degree in foreign affairs (reference your immature Egypt rebuttal). Let the people that actually work at these 2 airlines answer his question with facts, not what your daddy tells you. If you respond with "nobody should see what they are doing but themselves", then you have no stake in this discussion because you do not work at either.

 

[johnsonrod]

Although I'm not an airline guy, I love it when I hear "I want to see the world". Well it ain't that fun most of the time. Do you really want to see 12+30 and 5800nm to go on the FMS? I love going places, its the getting there that is a pain.

I think you need to go to Uranus, you meany!! If you don't want to do the work (flying the plane), don't do the job. You sound more like Julie, the cruise director from The Love Boat. Everybody now......"The Love Boat, exciting and new, come aboard, we're expecting yoooouuuu, especially you corporate tools with no real work rules that can fly more than 12 hours in a day with a two man crew cause the boss's wife says so...."

 

[texman]

Yeah, let's also stay out of the affairs of Egypt. It's their deal. All cameras off there. Nobody should see what they are doing but themselves. Thanks Einstein!

This is what Crash is saying, so please move on. "cold blooded!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUrqy1Ec06c

 

[Crash Pad]

The funny thing Jrod is Jetdriver69 probably makes more money than you and has more days off. So keep insulting with your childish remarks and go back to the kids table, maybe the regional boards is more your speed. And I bet you would sell out your fellow aviators to get JD69's resume.

 

[johnsonrod]

Skywiz asked about the pros/cons of working at DAL and SWA. You have worked at neither, or doubt you have a degree in foreign affairs (reference your immature Egypt rebuttal). Let the people that actually work at these 2 airlines answer his question with facts, not what your daddy tells you. If you respond with "nobody should see what they are doing but themselves", then you have no stake in this discussion because you do not work at either.

Wait, you said it. My dad was a Captain at Delta (fNWA), so I do know something about it. And, I have plenty of friends there(like my new friend General Lee), so I can probably comment on what they say. Thanks for becoming a great moderator, though.

 

[johnsonrod]

The funny thing Jrod is Jetdriver69 probably makes more money than you and has more days off. So keep insulting with your childish remarks and go back to the kids table, maybe the regional boards is more your speed. And I bet you would sell out your fellow aviators to get JD69's resume.

That's great if he makes more money, I don't care. I do fine right now, and have a good chance to do a lot better. I'm not in a bad spot at all. Many SWA pilots make more than other pilots too, but I don't envy them at all. Lots of legs per day in a 737 with no chance of "seeing the world" just doesn't impress me, but that's just me....... I aspire for MORE, and the better money will be there too. Flying corporate really doesn't interest me either, the "on call 24/7 for rich bosses" just isn't for me. He can have it. And you can shove it.

 

[Crash Pad]

No, General Lee works there, so he knows what DAL is about lil' buddy and you do not. His responses have validity, yours do not.

 

[Crash Pad]

Your last response is why I posted in the first place, your hatred for SWA shows every time you type. This was an honest question someone posed to the pilots of both airlines, now you are rambling about corporate pilots and how that sucks, how SWA sucks, so go back to Moline and Albany turns and let the big boys discuss and answer this persons question.

 

[johnsonrod]

Your last response is why I posted in the first place, your hatred for SWA shows every time you type. This was an honest question someone posed to the pilots of both airlines, now you are rambling about corporate pilots and how that sucks, how SWA sucks, so go back to Moline and Albany turns and let the big boys discuss and answer this persons question.

"What does everyone think if they had a chance to work at either one?"


Re-read the initial post, the second paragraph. He was looking for advice from ANYONE who may or may NOT work there. You are WRONG! Re-read it.

And, my opinions on Southwest are just the reasons why I choose not to apply there, and they are valid for many pilots. He was asking for advice from ANYONE on whether or not he should spend thousands of dollars on a type rating (another bad idea, IMO). And, I tend to fly to bigger cities than Albany and Moline in my Texas based E145. But thanks to your merger, you will see both of those two cities you mentioned. You lucky dog!

 

[texman]

"What does everyone think if they had a chance to work at either one?"


Re-read the initial post, the second paragraph. He was looking for advice from ANYONE who may or may NOT work there. You are WRONG! Re-read it.

And, my opinions on Southwest are just the reasons why I choose not to apply there, and they are valid for many pilots. He was asking for advice from ANYONE on whether or not he should spend thousands of dollars on a type rating (another bad idea, IMO). And, I tend to fly to bigger cities than Albany and Moline in my Texas based E145. But thanks to your merger, you will see both of those two cities you mentioned. You lucky dog!

I will tell you what J man. I will make money and see the world with my family, on my time. Plus alot of the guys at SWA have seen the world. Oh and when I do go see the world you can be my bee-atch and take me there. So how is eagle or expressjet working out for you?

 

[canyonblue]

Like someone else said, just take a look around this forum. You can get enough information from this board, just by reading some of the dribble that is posted here. Ask yourself, would I want to sit for 3 or 4 days next to some of these guys? Not me, I never applied to Delta, seemed like way too uptight a pilot group for me. I would think that if you even have to ask between SWA or Delta, you belong at Delta. It's like deciding between the Playboy Mansion and The 700 Club Compound, where would you rather spend the weekend? Yeah, it's THAT different.

 

[mdf]

Like someone else said, just take a look around this forum. You can get enough information from this board, just by reading some of the dribble that is posted here. Ask yourself, would I want to sit for 3 or 4 days next to some of these guys? Not me, I never applied to Delta, seemed like way too uptight a pilot group for me. I would think that if you even have to ask between SWA or Delta, you belong at Delta. It's like deciding between the Playboy Mansion and The 700 Club Compound, where would you rather spend the weekend? Yeah, it's THAT different.

Yes, and every SWA thread on here has the same DAL stalkers. Why all the interest? This Jrod guy has ramped up the creepy factor by 10.

 

[Heavy Set]

To each his own. If given the choice, I'd pick Delta so that I could always have the shorthaul OR longhaul option. Things and preferences change. You might want shorthaul now but that could change after a few years. I'd start off flying the Airbus shorthaul for a few years and then maybe bid the A330 or 767ER when able. But I could always go back to shorthaul flying if desired. You want the OPTION vs. just one type of flying.

Personally, I couldn't see myself flying the same aircraft 3-5 sectors per day, 30-minute turns, for the rest of my career. That sounds like a real JOB to me. I am not that motivated - but that's just me.

No doubt SWA is fantastic from a money standpoint right now, but I am sure Delta's will get better with negotiations in the future. If Delta's money were equal to or greater than SWA's money after the next round of negotiations, then there would be no comparison in my book. Also, if I am going to be an FO for the next 15-20 years, I'd like some aircraft variety during that time period. Regardless, consider yourself lucky if you get hired by either.

Good luck if you actually have the choice.

 

[canyonblue]

Yes, and every SWA thread on here has the same DAL stalkers. Why all the interest? This Jrod guy has ramped up the creepy factor by 10.

I think you nailed it..........

Stalkers often suffer from low self-esteem, and feel they must have a relationship with the victim in order to have any self worth.​

Preoccupations with other people almost always involve someone with weak social skills and low self-esteem.
​

The above traits remind us that much of stalking involves harassment and annoyance, but never forget that stalkers can also be extraordinarily dangerous. Believing that their victims love and care for them, stalkers can become violent when frustrated in their quest for this love.

Although the majority of cases do not end in murder or grave bodily injury, enough do every year that victims should never brush aside the possibility. Victims of stalking should never take the crime lightly, no matter who the stalkers are or how close they have been emotionally.

​

Look carefully again at the traits below and be wary if someone seems to fit these.

Won't take no for an answer ​

Has an obsessive personality​

No or few personal relationships​

Lack of embarrassment or discomfort at actions​

Low self esteem
​

Sociopathic thinking
​

Has a mean streak
​

 

[On Your Six]

I have friends at both. The Delta guys are all either Captains or longhaul FOs. The SWA guys I know are senior FOs. Based on what they tell me, I'd choose Delta. More options in terms of flying and aircraft. But, as we all know, this is just a job at the end of the day. The paycheck and QOL are the two biggest factors to concern yourself with.

If you can get a good QOL with the highest amount of pay at either choice, consider yourself in a great situation.

 

[ivauir]

The thing that sucks is that there is no mainline replacement for the -30's and 40's that have already been parked. It's no secret, however ugly, that the E170's and 175s and jumbo CRJs are their replacements.

Is there any chance at all that mainline can capture the "jumbo RJ" flying? JMHO but that would not only benefit DAL pilots but would be a step in the right direction for the entire profession.

 

[General Lee]

I will tell you what J man. I will make money and see the world with my family, on my time. Plus alot of the guys at SWA have seen the world. Oh and when I do go see the world you can be my bee-atch and take me there. So how is eagle or expressjet working out for you?

Yeah, "plus a lot of the guys at SWA have seen the World." So, they now want to mainly see West Texas? If they saw it in the Military, they might not have seen it how Airline guys see it. And, plenty of DL guys saw it too in the Military, and that is why they go back now, as much as they can. (do you understand my hint?) And do you think DL guys flying 744s, A330s, or 767s flying to Asia or Europe are your bee-atch? What does that make you when I want to fly to Little Rock or El Paso? Wait, I never want to go there.....

BTW, it's great you make fun of Rod's enthusiasm. What's wrong with him being an Eagle or Expressjet Capt? Is that bad? Were you a Regional Captain? Those two airlines seem like pretty good ones. I am sure you were never like that in his position. You yourself are wildly excited about SWA, and that is apparent. So what if he has opinions on your SLI, so do we all. That's what they are, opinions.


Bye Bye--General Lee