SWA letters of "Thanks but no thanks, see ya next year.

[AlbieF15]

Boz,

You got a package (sts) in at FDX? I'm sure we have a bunch of former marines (and one ex-AF F-15 driver) that would love to help you here.

PS...thought police lurk everywhere.

 

[ivauir]

OffHot, your quoted post could lead to a breakthru. If you are able, please expound upon this "Our modified interview procedures, to include the LOI, was developed by a pilot.".

Are you telling me that a pilot decided upon the TMAAT format and wrote the questions?

If so, was/is that pilot either a psychologist or a psychiatrist?

Why did that pilot choose aviation subjects (I admit to having slightly old info, please fell free to correct me and state the nature of the current question bank) instead of general TMAAT questions?

Are the interviewers properly trained mental health professionals?
Even more to the point, can the TMAAT/personality type/behavioral interview be adeqautely administered by anyone less than a trained mental health professional?
If not, how are the SWA pilot interviewers actually trained?

Is the interviewer allowed to make whatever comment she/he chooses on the eval form, or do they have to follow the format of the "system"? That is, can the interviewer skip the S/A/R form and just write his evaluation of the applicants personality type?
Who wrote the eval form?

Please explain this, "The PD are the administrators of the process".
Does this mean that they present all of the applicants to the DB?, or do they have the ability to eliminate some applicants before their package reaches the DB?
Is they can eliminate applicants before the DB, then they must have more than an administrative role in the process. If they can't eliminate someone i.e., if they present all interviewees to the DB, then what does the PD actually accomplish?

I'm not trying to demean anyone in the PD, I only wish that my employer had a PD instead of an HR department, I'm just trying to get a handle on the system.

On a personal note to an undisclosed member, I'm trying here to avoid disparaging the system. Let me know if I succeeded. Also, sorry, I just couldn't resist one more discussion before I go.

Spaceman Spiff

Spiff,
I'm trying to avoid getting PO'd here. I'll let you know if I succeed. I am not sure what you think the process should be. Do you want to sit on couch and talk about your mother? The pilot group gets massive input into what kind of folks we want to spend almost half of our lives with.
I understad folks are frustrated, but do you REALLY think that:
- we should hire every applicant who looks good on paper?
- we should have an interview process/environment that makes you feel unwanted? Maybe if we were meaner at the interview the rejection wouldn't sting as much?
- the process should be completely objective wth human resource gurus and psychiatrists telling the pilots who we should work with?

Frankly, every critisism of the process that I've read here boils down to one of these three issues. That being the case I hope we stick with what we've got. How you can compare smiles and handshakes to the head games and quotas of the airlines you are comparing us to is beyond me.

In the end, it is what it is. Our hiring percentages are about the same as they've always been. Haveing the type has never increased your chances of getting hired, but in this environment it is awfully hard to get to the interview without it. That is a shame, when the industry recovers it will get back to the way it used to be, and you can laugh at us and call us regional pilots again. In the end my advice is what it has always been -the type is awfully expensive, don't get it unless you are willing to reinterview. And under NO circumstances think that getting the type gets you the job.

Good luck all.

 

[Hawkered]

I think the PFT argument doesn't really hold water with SWA. The type rating on a US FAA ATP can be used anywhere in the world practically.

The old days of paying for a F/O slot on some weed-whacker that wasn't even even a type rating to begin with was just an example of exploitation.

 

[fugghedabowdit]

If everyone would just stop buying the type ratings, they would be forced to interview more people without it. Once again, we are our own worst enemy.

My app is in, no type. Not waiting by the phone, either.

 

[SWAnnabee]

I understad folks are frustrated, but do you REALLY think that:
- we should hire every applicant who looks good on paper?
- we should have an interview process/environment that makes you feel unwanted? Maybe if we were meaner at the interview the rejection wouldn't sting as much?
- the process should be completely objective wth human resource gurus and psychiatrists telling the pilots who we should work with?

- we should hire every applicant who looks good on paper?

Why not???? Seriously. Before you answer, realize that you and most others in the airline industry are tainted with this attitude and mindset because things have been this way for so long. It doesn't work like this in many other jobs in this country. If a person meets all the qualifications, has recommendations from others within the company that can be verified, clean record, etc, then all that should be left to determiine is if the applicant is a COMPLETE tool!!! This policy of interviewing 20 folks for only three slots is silly. But because it has been this way for so long, everyone just accepts it as the norm.

HR should be there to ONLY fill out forms, make phone calls, set up interview dates and travel arrangements, and perform background checks. Give me one good reason why a company HR department, FROM ANY COMPANY, AVIATION OR NON AVIATION, shoud have any say in the actual hiring process. They shouldn't and outside aviation, for the MOST part, they don't. The ONLY people with a say in the hiring decision should be the potential new-hire's future supervisor/manager.

Lets say, just as an example, you are a manager and need an extra new-hire because your department/flight department/domicile, etc is getting short handed. WHY WOULD YOU ALLOW SOMEONE (HR) TO MAKE A DECISION FOR YOU THAT WILL NEVER HAVE THAT APPLICANT WORK FOR THEM? It makes no sense. Some HR person gets to say yeay/nay, then never sees the applicant again except in passing. Meanwhile, the manager/chelf pilot/etc is stuck with a person that may have not been THEIR first choice. Makes no sense.

I seem to remember hearing that, back in the day, all hiring interviews were conducted by one or two chief piplots, AFTER reviewing an applicants qualifications, then MAYBE a sim check or flight to see how well he/she handled an a/c. What happened to that format???

I've read on THESE very boards about guys, not just with SWA but throughout the industry, with 3-4 times the minimum requirements, multiple STRONG LORs, Chief pilot recommendations, glowing background checks, etc, and others who can attest the the person in question is a good guy and would fit in well, only to get a "no thanks" letter and leaving them with a WTF. How many of them were because of some HR input that, lets be honest, knows very little about flying and will never have to spend a 3-4 day trip with the applicant.

I just fail to see the logic in this type of process. NOT BITTER Just fail to see the logic and think others should be asking the same questions.

 

[:-)]

Spiff,
I'm trying to avoid getting PO'd here. I'll let you know if I succeed. I am not sure what you think the process should be. Do you want to sit on couch and talk about your mother? The pilot group gets massive input into what kind of folks we want to spend almost half of our lives with.
I understad folks are frustrated, but do you REALLY think that:
- we should hire every applicant who looks good on paper?
- we should have an interview process/environment that makes you feel unwanted? Maybe if we were meaner at the interview the rejection wouldn't sting as much?
- the process should be completely objective wth human resource gurus and psychiatrists telling the pilots who we should work with?

Frankly, every critisism of the process that I've read here boils down to one of these three issues. That being the case I hope we stick with what we've got. How you can compare smiles and handshakes to the head games and quotas of the airlines you are comparing us to is beyond me.

In the end, it is what it is. Our hiring percentages are about the same as they've always been. Haveing the type has never increased your chances of getting hired, but in this environment it is awfully hard to get to the interview without it. That is a shame, when the industry recovers it will get back to the way it used to be, and you can laugh at us and call us regional pilots again. In the end my advice is what it has always been -the type is awfully expensive, don't get it unless you are willing to reinterview. And under NO circumstances think that getting the type gets you the job.

Good luck all.

ivauir, I started writing a less than calm response and then realized that you're just taking out your frustration about the anti-SWA stuff against me. Please go back and re-read my last post. I'm not anti-SWA, I'm not anti-PD. Heck, I'm not even anti-behavioral interview. I do happen to have a little education and know that the TMAAT interview process is deeper than a lot of you SWA dudes seem to realize. I ask questions for two purposes. One, in an attempt to get a handle on the exact methodology that SWA uses, and Two, to find a way to succeed if I ever get a second chance. I don't expect anyone who's been hired in the last ten years to criticize the process, nor do I intend to cut the process down. If I'm guilty of anything, it is in getting ever so slightly off center when ya'll defend a process that I seriously doubt you truly know anything about.

OffHot offered a fact, or at least offered what I took him to mean as a fact. I ask him to expound upon that fact. If a pilot did in fact develop the process, and if OffHot has knowledge, I desire to dig that knowledge from him. After all, he originally offered. I didn't just decide to go off and piss you off by dis-in your system. I may have done that in the past, but not today.

If you have any answers to the questions I posed, please post em.

Again, I'm not trying to drag the system down, I'm trying to find a way to succeed in it. Help me out and someday we'll sit around the bar laughing at all of those guys who let negativity slow em down.

Calvin, trying hard to stay positive. If only for myself.






& for hobbes. He doesn't like being left out.

 

[Yank McCobb]

If everyone would just stop buying the type ratings, they would be forced to interview more people without it.

And if everyone would just stop showing up for class at the regionals for a job that pays $20/hr they would be forced to increase the pay. Not holding my breath for that to happen, either. After all, a stand-up guy like yourself knocked people out of the way rushing to take YOUR $20k a year job.

 

[HoursHore]

Did we really need another 5 pages after the SWA DB Ding you suck thead?

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=58972

I think we get the point now.

 

[Doug Parker]

Lets say, just as an example, you are a manager and need an extra new-hire because your department/flight department/domicile, etc is getting short handed. WHY WOULD YOU ALLOW SOMEONE (HR) TO MAKE A DECISION FOR YOU THAT WILL NEVER HAVE THAT APPLICANT WORK FOR THEM? It makes no sense. Some HR person gets to say yeay/nay, then never sees the applicant again except in passing. Meanwhile, the manager/chelf pilot/etc is stuck with a person that may have not been THEIR first choice. Makes no sense


HR is there to make sure females and minorities get hired, even if they are not the most qualified.

Gotta fill those EEOC quotas so all of those Affirmative Action a-holes don't get their panties in a bunch.

Never mind that the middle-age white male is a minority in this country.

 

[ivauir]

- we should hire every applicant who looks good on paper?

Why not????
Because the pilot group doesn't want them to.

Seriously. Before you answer, realize that you and most others in the airline industry are tainted with this attitude and mindset because things have been this way for so long. It doesn't work like this in many other jobs in this country. If a person meets all the qualifications, has recommendations from others within the company that can be verified, clean record, etc, then all that should be left to determiine is if the applicant is a COMPLETE tool!!! This policy of interviewing 20 folks for only three slots is silly.

Why do you think there are "slots"? There aren't, they can hire as many as they want on a given day.

But because it has been this way for so long, everyone just accepts it as the norm.

HR should be there to ONLY fill out forms, make phone calls, set up interview dates and travel arrangements, and perform background checks.

What makes you think their input goes beyond this? The PD is not the decision board, they get inputs, but the vast majority of decision makers in this process are pilots.

Give me one good reason why a company HR department, FROM ANY COMPANY, AVIATION OR NON AVIATION, shoud have any say in the actual hiring process. They shouldn't and outside aviation, for the MOST part, they don't. The ONLY people with a say in the hiring decision should be the potential new-hire's future supervisor/manager.

Actually a lot of folks get inputs to the decsion board, gate agents, ops agents, flight attendants. Lots of folks have doomed themselves by looking down on non pilot eployees.

Lets say, just as an example, you are a manager and need an extra new-hire because your department/flight department/domicile, etc is getting short handed. WHY WOULD YOU ALLOW SOMEONE (HR) TO MAKE A DECISION FOR YOU THAT WILL NEVER HAVE THAT APPLICANT WORK FOR THEM? It makes no sense. Some HR person gets to say yeay/nay, then never sees the applicant again except in passing. Meanwhile, the manager/chelf pilot/etc is stuck with a person that may have not been THEIR first choice. Makes no sense.

If you were a chief pilots first choice you would be on property. It was not the PD that shot you down.

I seem to remember hearing that, back in the day, all hiring interviews were conducted by one or two chief piplots, AFTER reviewing an applicants qualifications, then MAYBE a sim check or flight to see how well he/she handled an a/c. What happened to that format???

I've read on THESE very boards about guys, not just with SWA but throughout the industry, with 3-4 times the minimum requirements, multiple STRONG LORs, Chief pilot recommendations, glowing background checks, etc, and others who can attest the the person in question is a good guy and would fit in well, only to get a "no thanks" letter and leaving them with a WTF. How many of them were because of some HR input that, lets be honest, knows very little about flying and will never have to spend a 3-4 day trip with the applicant.

Again, the reason we don't hire everybody that we interview is because the pilots want to screen out who we spend a 3-4 day trip with.

I just fail to see the logic in this type of process. NOT BITTER Just fail to see the logic and think others should be asking the same questions.

I think you need to stop asking questions about the internal mechanisms of SWA's interview process. I fail to see the logic of you wasting your time and energy critiqueing something you can not influence.
I know this is a low point and some folks here are just venting, and I guess I should just let it go. Good luck, I hope something works out soon.

 

[SWAnnabee]

ivauir,

If you were a chief pilots first choice you would be on property. It was not the PD that shot you down.

This discussion has very little to do with ME. This is a discussion where we can all voice our views on various ideas on various subjects.

As far as SWA goes, I gave it a try, had a nice experience, didn't get an offer, then went on to realize this wasn't the job or lifestyle for me after all and have found other work that I like very much. Weather it was the PD that "shot me down" is not only irrelevant but also, I suspect, beyond the scope of your knowledge. If you know otherwise, please PM me. I would be curious to hear what inside knowledge of individual applicants attempts for employment you might have. In the mean time, SWA is a great company doing well

I fail to see the logic of you wasting your time and energy critiqueing something you can not influence.
Well, since this is a BB made up of pilots, and some of the pilots here work at airlines, and some of these pilots might someday be in a position to affect the hiring practices of their airlines, and communication and ideas are what creates the future.....I'd say yes, I and WE CAN influence the process. If you feel otherwise, why interrupt the conversation of others?

 

[ivauir]

ivauir, I started writing a less than calm response and then realized that you're just taking out your frustration about the anti-SWA stuff against me.
I'm sorry if you feel I'm taking anything out on you. That is not my intent.

Please go back and re-read my last post. I'm not anti-SWA, I'm not anti-PD. Heck, I'm not even anti-behavioral interview. I do happen to have a little education and know that the TMAAT interview process is deeper than a lot of you SWA dudes seem to realize. I ask questions for two purposes. One, in an attempt to get a handle on the exact methodology that SWA uses, and Two, to find a way to succeed if I ever get a second chance. I don't expect anyone who's been hired in the last ten years to criticize the process, nor do I intend to cut the process down. If I'm guilty of anything, it is in getting ever so slightly off center when ya'll defend a process that I seriously doubt you truly know anything about.

Hopefully, those truly in the know do not offer too deep an insight into the process. With the education that you have you must know that developing such a process is expensive, and that folks trying to "game" the system can affect the results.

OffHot offered a fact, or at least offered what I took him to mean as a fact. I ask him to expound upon that fact. If a pilot did in fact develop the process, and if OffHot has knowledge, I desire to dig that knowledge from him. After all, he originally offered. I didn't just decide to go off and piss you off by dis-in your system. I may have done that in the past, but not today.

If you have any answers to the questions I posed, please post em.

Our system changed in response to inputs from the pilot group, it was not exactly "designed" by a pilot.

Again, I'm not trying to drag the system down, I'm trying to find a way to succeed in it. Help me out and someday we'll sit around the bar laughing at all of those guys who let negativity slow em down.

Calvin, trying hard to stay positive. If only for myself.






& for hobbes. He doesn't like being left out.

It seems I've gotten myself into a little bit of a flame war. Maybe I shouldn't have responded to the earlier threads and let folks vent a little bit. Of course I am fiercly proud of my company and it can be hard to let the slams go without a response, but I guess the best thing is to let my pride go.

To those who got hired, congratulations, stop coming to this web site.

To those who got the letter, I'm truly sorry it didn't work out this time, I encourage you to apply again. I don't know why we didn't hire you, but learn whatever lessons you can, move on and weather you apply here again or not "Good Luck"!

To those waiting to interview: please understand that buying the type does not get you the job, and that once you go to the interview, you're qualifications don't matter much either. At that point, it comes down to how well you present yourself and what your GDF.* Keep in mind that your GDF varies from day to day and that your preceived GDF may not reflect your actual GDF. We do hire real people that look like you and have similar backgrounds to you. Crop duster pilots, Thunderbirds, Air Force One pilots, regional pilots and many others get hired all of the time (occasionally a rotor head slips through the cracks too). Similarily we reject folks with all kinds of differnt backgrounds too. Nobody is a shoe in and no body (that meets the quals) is a long shot. Your job in the interview is be yourself and pray that you are who they are looking for.

My advice is to NOT get the type rating unless you are willing to interview multiple times without becoming bitter.

As always, good luck! For the record I am done with these threads. The process is what it is. Those of us who slipped through the cracks would probably defend it even if it was critically flawed. And those on the otherside would critique it regardless of its merits. In the end nobody on this web site is going to change it anyway, so we're just spinning our wheels.

* GDF = Good Dude(tte) Factor

 

[TheDogsBollocks]

Can some of you SWA=PFT folks please explain it to me.

PFT at least used to be, when the term originated, meant having to pay your employer for the cost of your initial new-hire training and you received no rating or certificate for it. As far as I know, nobody is paying SWA (and many aren't paying anyone at all) for the type, nobody is paying for their own new-hire training, and everyone is getting an FAA issued rating.

IF SWA is PFT for requiring a type, then FedEx and UPS are PFT for requiring you to pay for your FE written. Just because the cost of the FE written is less than the 737 type doesn't make it any different - at what dollar amount does the cutoff occur? And it is a VERY thin line from there to every airline being a PFT operation for requiring certain certificates.

The term PFT is being thrown about these days the same as the term scab. If you don't like someone in aviation these days, they're a scab. If you don't like an airlines hiring practice, they are a PFT outfit. The terms are not being used in their real context.

If you don't like the fact that SWA requires a 737 type for employment that is fine, don't apply there. But don't use a term that means one thing and apply it to something different.

Allow me to put the PFT argument another way.

When you pay for training after getting a job offer with a type or no type, at least you will be able to get a return on that investment-i.e. a paying (albeit poorly in some circumstances) job.

With SWA, you shell out $6-10 grand for type JUST to advance your ability to interview sooner, with no gaurantee of sucess!

I know what's worse in my book.

 

[enigma]

Allow me to put the PFT argument another way.

When you pay for training after getting a job offer with a type or no type, at least you will be able to get a return on that investment-i.e. a paying (albeit poorly in some circumstances) job.

With SWA, you shell out $6-10 grand for type JUST to advance your ability to interview sooner, with no gaurantee of sucess!

I know what's worse in my book.

Bollocks, you might have a point if SWA required that applicants buy the type from SWA. They don't. Matter of fact, SWA doesn't require you to buy a type at all. I know of several SWA newhires who never bought a type.

That sort of blows your PFT argument out of the water.

enigma

 

[SkiFishFly]

I did it too...

I see the type rating as an investment in myself and my aviation career. Just like my ATP was.
If I don’t ever interview at SWA, I still would not view the type rating experience as a waste of money. I view learning new things and adding new qualifications to my resume as an investment in myself and therefore view the type rating as valuable regardless of getting hired at SWA. I also believe it proves that someone like myself whose experience is almost solely in military aircraft is still capable of learning a new aircraft in the civil aviation environment.
I could have chosen to get an MBA or go to grad school. I decided a type rating was the equivalent of grad school for someone who wants to be a professional pilot.

My 02 cents.


Still waiting for the phone to ring...

 

[TheDogsBollocks]

Bollocks, you might have a point if SWA required that applicants buy the type from SWA. They don't. Matter of fact, SWA doesn't require you to buy a type at all. I know of several SWA newhires who never bought a type.

That sort of blows your PFT argument out of the water.

enigma

Enigma,

I respectfully must disagree with you, you are correct that SWA does not require you to buy the type from them, however buying one does indeed shuffle your name up the line for interview selection.

I know a person who got a type earlier this year and submitted his application to SWA thereafter, he was recently interviewed. I also know of an individual who had submitted an app. just prior to 9/11-still waiting for the call.

I recall reading in Aviation Careers magazine about 4 years ago when they did an expose on SWA. The interviewer in the article asked weather typed applicant's received preferential interview status. The representative from SWA (who's name escapes me) could not even give a straight answer, but his response once you read "between the lines" was in the affirmative.

So, once again PFT once you get the job is bad enough, but to PFI (pay for Interview) is quite another!

 

[Mugs]

I see the type rating as an investment in myself and my aviation career. Just like my ATP was.
If I don’t ever interview at SWA, I still would not view the type rating experience as a waste of money. I view learning new things and adding new qualifications to my resume as an investment in myself and therefore view the type rating as valuable regardless of getting hired at SWA. I also believe it proves that someone like myself whose experience is almost solely in military aircraft is still capable of learning a new aircraft in the civil aviation environment.
I could have chosen to get an MBA or go to grad school. I decided a type rating was the equivalent of grad school for someone who wants to be a professional pilot.

My 02 cents.


Still waiting for the phone to ring...

The trouble with that logic is that if the SWA job doesn't work out, your investment becomes worthless. A 737 type with no experience in the airplane is meaningless beyond the SWA world. Besides, before too long all the 737 Bee-Bees you stuffed in your head are going to roll right out anyway.

 

[MarylandONE]

Hysterical, Bozt45....Do you work for US Air or United? Your attitude is why those companies fail and why SWA is successful. The PD is the success of SWA. The people they hire are the company.

Thank God you are not one of us.

 

[Mugs]

He never worked for either. He took his first shot with you guys.

By the way, some of those paint jobs are really getting painful to look at.

 

[MarylandONE]

Lets say, just as an example, you are a manager and need an extra new-hire because your department/flight department/domicile, etc is getting short handed. WHY WOULD YOU ALLOW SOMEONE (HR) TO MAKE A DECISION FOR YOU THAT WILL NEVER HAVE THAT APPLICANT WORK FOR THEM? It makes no sense. Some HR person gets to say yeay/nay, then never sees the applicant again except in passing. Meanwhile, the manager/chelf pilot/etc is stuck with a person that may have not been THEIR first choice. Makes no sense


HR is there to make sure females and minorities get hired, even if they are not the most qualified.

Gotta fill those EEOC quotas so all of those Affirmative Action a-holes don't get their panties in a bunch.

Never mind that the middle-age white male is a minority in this country.

Have you not heard of the DB made up of chief pilots who decide who gets hired? The PD weeds out the weak. All are qualified but who wants to sit next to an Asshat ALPA type guy for 8 hours complaining that he deserves 30 days off a month and $400k/per year or the other a-hole who just sits in the cockpit like a lump when he should be pushing a wheelchair or helping a customer in some capacity. A freaking monkey can fly a plane it's the right person who can understand flying is 1/2 the quality of a pilot at SWA.

Any chance you get that one?